Helpful ReplyHot!ISIS Talk & Speculation

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SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:01:29 (permalink)
Ah yes, those halcyon days of the caliphate. 
dimdum
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:11:47 (permalink)
Razor
Police in Germany have charged a man suspected of being behind an attack on the Borussia Dortmund team bus.
Rather than having links to radical Islamism, he was a market trader hoping to make money if the price of shares in the team fell, prosecutors say.


Like I always say, I like to reserve judgement until more investigations are done.
Jungle Dave
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:16:40 (permalink)
SW14
You would describe the Iranian regime as "Islamist" but you couldn't refer to it as Wahabbist. 
 
 




 
I don't think Shia Islam has been anything like as problematic as the Wahabist movement. Ahmadinejad often fell out with his theological counterparts during his period of nationalism. 
 
EDIT : Nomenclature becomes more important when you consider the mortal enemies of Sunni Islam are in Tehran 
post edited by Jungle Dave - 2017/04/21 12:19:22

SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:17:38 (permalink)
I don't think any of us could have predicted a real life hybrid plotline from Wall St and Dream Team circa 2002.
 
I said I didn't believe this was right wing extremists, so I wasn't completely wrong. 
Goodone
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:18:33 (permalink)
darkmatter
I assumed it was probably an islamist attack too. I didn't argue the case though, as I feel it's risky jumping to conclusions without evidence. Otherwise people think you're being too quick to demonise / lay blame at a certain door which can weaken your argument.


Not sure how Islamism can be demonized any further tbh I'm sure they would loved to take the credit after all it is their mission to destroy us... to even say that means you recognise them as having some legitimamacy

In terms of dortmund yeah guess non Muslims capable of evil just like not every Muslim is a terrorist paedo... not sure how this disproves the simple case that Islamism is an ideology which we need to confront... That's like me saying Tories = scum therefore politicians scum therefore corbyn scum (yeah u heard !)
RAYZA
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:19:02 (permalink)
dimdum
Razor
Police in Germany have charged a man suspected of being behind an attack on the Borussia Dortmund team bus.
Rather than having links to radical Islamism, he was a market trader hoping to make money if the price of shares in the team fell, prosecutors say.


Like I always say, I like to reserve judgement until more investigations are done.



You some sort of loony lefty? Bombs first, questions laters imo.
darkmatter
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:23:20 (permalink)
Goodone
darkmatter
I assumed it was probably an islamist attack too. I didn't argue the case though, as I feel it's risky jumping to conclusions without evidence. Otherwise people think you're being too quick to demonise / lay blame at a certain door which can weaken your argument.


Not sure how Islamism can be demonized any further tbh I'm sure they would loved to take the credit after all it is their mission to destroy us... to even say that means you recognise them as having some legitimamacy

In terms of dortmund yeah guess non Muslims capable of evil just like not every Muslim is a terrorist paedo... not sure how this disproves the simple case that Islamism is an ideology which we need to confront... That's like me saying Tories = scum therefore politicians scum therefore corbyn scum (yeah u heard !)



Tangential bullshit strawman alert.
 
SW14
 
I said I didn't believe this was right wing extremists, so I wasn't completely wrong. 

 
LOL dont try it man
 
You both jumped to an assumption and you were both wrong. Same here, I'm not going to try and weasel out though.

Goodone
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:31:43 (permalink)
If your point is we shouldn't be so quick to point the blame at islamic fundamentalism id admit I did but question why that's such a big deal... it's not as if they're a poor innocent minority who's rights should be pandered to despite the fact they're sole reason to exist is destroy us and roll out a global callaphate, is It?

Cos if it is your strategy ain't working pal
post edited by Goodone - 2017/04/21 12:36:31
wiseacre
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:31:54 (permalink)
SW14
Ah yes, those halcyon days of the caliphate. 




just pointing it out meight. 
 
then we supported the lunatics who didn't consider him hardline enough. then stabbed them in the back. 

no
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:38:12 (permalink)
What?
 
The Ottoman Empire fell because they threw their hand in with the Germans in World War 1, not because we didn't like the Sultan's interpretation of Islam.
 
darkmatter
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 12:42:43 (permalink)
Goodone
If your point is we shouldn't be so quick to point the blame at islamic fundamentalism id admit I did but question why that's such a big deal... it's not as if they're a poor innocent minority who's rights should be pandered to despite the fact they're sole reason to exist is destroy us and roll out a global callaphate, is It?

Cos if it is your strategy ain't working pal


My point was simply the first bit of your post. Nothing I've said suggests I am defending terrorists as some sort of oppressed minority, not sure what gave you that impression?

wiseacre
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 13:09:25 (permalink)
SW14
What?
 
The Ottoman Empire fell because they threw their hand in with the Germans in World War 1, not because we didn't like the Sultan's interpretation of Islam.
 




without wanting to get dragged into a tiresome argument:
- you bemoaned lack of vaticanesque unification in islam
- i pointed out this used to be the case, at the same time as a wide variety of sects existed. nullifying the above.
- you mentioned the caliphate, drawing parallels with modern day fundamentalists
- i pointed out we, the same people that broke up the empire/caliphate and ended a 800 year monarchy (which need not have occurred), backed and supported the actual fundamentalists in the conflict, who wished to see the end of the empire as it wasn't islamic enough. islamists we then fucked over as we carved up arabia.
-  what the fuck am i even doing typing this shit.

no
Lrrr
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 13:36:28 (permalink)
SW14
Both have been key contributors to UK terror and they should be very easy to get a grip on with the right will, which should be there.

I would say prisons and universities have been about equal.

That is a very, very strange story.



I'm sure I've told you this before but my pal was in Long Lartin and the conversation when you got on the wing was literally 'convert to Islam or you're dead'. One fella refused and was airlifted to hospital half hour later.
 
The whole 'all jail's radicalises people' argument is bullshit. It's only in dispersals and most of them ain't ever getting out anyway. Obviously, Muslims to only really have it together in other jails, but they don't go around radicalising people - they're too busy selling spice. It's a myth.

SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 14:30:14 (permalink)
That's on the wing, what about prison imams?

There was a report only last year that Deobandis (another wingnut ultra Conservative Sunni sect who should be banned) made up the majority of them.
Goodone
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 16:25:02 (permalink)
darkmatter
Goodone
If your point is we shouldn't be so quick to point the blame at islamic fundamentalism id admit I did but question why that's such a big deal... it's not as if they're a poor innocent minority who's rights should be pandered to despite the fact they're sole reason to exist is destroy us and roll out a global callaphate, is It?

Cos if it is your strategy ain't working pal


My point was simply the first bit of your post. Nothing I've said suggests I am defending terrorists as some sort of oppressed minority, not sure what gave you that impression?

You mentioned something about leaping to conclusions and unnecessarily demonising Isis.... paraphrasing of course but what worries me is this way of thinking is so ingrained into people's psyche that they genuinely don't see how flawed and dangerous it is
post edited by Goodone - 2017/04/21 16:26:19
DJaySwitch
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 16:38:55 (permalink)
Wow you guys can really go for it cant you!?
Have to say some very interesting arguements being made here....genuine question for sw14, why do you know so much about all of this? Im just curious. You do put some very good points across i have to admit. And dave aswell to be fair!



www.myspace.com/urbanchaosdrumandbass
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 16:45:49 (permalink)
I remember watching 9/11 and thinking it would be the ideological struggle of our time so I've read a lot about it over the years, particularly in terms of the religious motivation.

When someone does something generally considered to be evil and invokes religious texts to justify it, I want to know where they got that impression.

Frankly, the more I have read and learnt the more unpleasant I find it.
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 16:54:05 (permalink)
wiseacre
SW14
What?
 
The Ottoman Empire fell because they threw their hand in with the Germans in World War 1, not because we didn't like the Sultan's interpretation of Islam.
 




without wanting to get dragged into a tiresome argument:
- you bemoaned lack of vaticanesque unification in islam
- i pointed out this used to be the case, at the same time as a wide variety of sects existed. nullifying the above.
- you mentioned the caliphate, drawing parallels with modern day fundamentalists
- i pointed out we, the same people that broke up the empire/caliphate and ended a 800 year monarchy (which need not have occurred), backed and supported the actual fundamentalists in the conflict, who wished to see the end of the empire as it wasn't islamic enough. islamists we then fucked over as we carved up arabia.
-  what the fuck am i even doing typing this shit.


I wasn't bemoaning, I was observing.
Goodone
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 16:56:14 (permalink)
DJaySwitch
. You do put some very good points across i have to admit. And dave aswell to be fair!

Agreed .. not sure if I should say this because the more I learn the more I'm convinced it is an ideological battle that we're probably losing, but I've had some fun here these last few days lol
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 17:00:52 (permalink)
It is an ideological battle that we aren't even trying to understand.

You have to know your enemy and identify their drivers. Our politicians are kidding on that Islam is a peaceful faith which is at best disingenuous and at worst a dangerous lie.

It is written with the prophet as a 7th century Arab warlord who fought hundreds of battles, violently expanding his religion until his death.

Based on that information alone, how likely is it to be peaceful?

The majority of the followers may be peaceful, that does not make it a peaceful religion. Any religion with the death penalty for apostasy cannot be considered peaceful to me.
post edited by SW14 - 2017/04/21 17:01:53
Lrrr
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 17:04:03 (permalink)
SW14
That's on the wing, what about prison imams?

There was a report only last year that Deobandis (another wingnut ultra Conservative Sunni sect who should be banned) made up the majority of them.

 
Imams, or anyone religious for that matter, don't just wander around the jail talking to people. For them to even come into a contact with an Imam, they'd have to already have converted. 
 
The only people that care enough to convert someone are extremists, and they're all in dispersals. 
 
Do you really think Sanjay from Oxford doing a 6 gives a shit about what religion someone is? Trust me, most of them are more concerned about making money.

dimdum
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 17:52:32 (permalink)
Razor
dimdum
Razor
Police in Germany have charged a man suspected of being behind an attack on the Borussia Dortmund team bus.
Rather than having links to radical Islamism, he was a market trader hoping to make money if the price of shares in the team fell, prosecutors say.


Like I always say, I like to reserve judgement until more investigations are done.



You some sort of loony lefty? Bombs first, questions laters imo.


I meant assuming it's ISIS right away
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 17:54:05 (permalink)
Lrrr
SW14
That's on the wing, what about prison imams?

There was a report only last year that Deobandis (another wingnut ultra Conservative Sunni sect who should be banned) made up the majority of them.

 
Imams, or anyone religious for that matter, don't just wander around the jail talking to people. For them to even come into a contact with an Imam, they'd have to already have converted. 
 
The only people that care enough to convert someone are extremists, and they're all in dispersals. 
 
Do you really think Sanjay from Oxford doing a 6 gives a shit about what religion someone is? Trust me, most of them are more concerned about making money.


Someone who already believes being exposed to extremism imams and being given extremist CD's and literature is a different threat from forced conversion.
Johnny Quest
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 17:58:24 (permalink)
Let's say politicians and world leaders of the western world shared your view of Islam and denounced it publicly.
 
Wouldn't that cause the biggest shit storm of all? 
darkmatter
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 18:14:49 (permalink)
Goodone

You mentioned something about leaping to conclusions and unnecessarily demonising Isis.... paraphrasing of course but what worries me is this way of thinking is so ingrained into people's psyche that they genuinely don't see how flawed and dangerous it is



I mentioned something about leaping to conclusions. I said nothing about unnecessarily demonising isis.
 
This is the scenario I'm cautioning against:
 
- A terror attack happens
- You leap to conclusions about the attacker and the motive, while voicing some perfectly valid concerns about extremist religion
- It turns out the attacker and motive weren't who you thought they were
- The people you told about the attacker and the motive doubt your credibility, and end up doubting your valid concerns about extremist religion, because you have a proven track record of wrongly blaming it
- Your valid concerns end up getting ignored
 
There is a difference between paraphrasing and simply building yourself a straw man to argue with, you seem to be doing the latter.
 
I do agree some people think in the way that you're trying to imply I am, so you don't need to try and prove that here.

SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 18:23:55 (permalink)
http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN17N238

Sigh. We can dress it up how we want, the Koran explicitly states that the death penalty is the punishment for blasphemy.

That is why these lynch mobs feel the need to kick people to death with complicit police.

That is nothing to do with foreign policy or anything else, that is Islam. It will start happening here more soon, it already has.

I think it is a great tragedy to see young free thinkers and bloggers being hacked to death, kicked to death, imprisoned, flogged, beheaded and hanged across the Islamic world for simply being accused of any disrespect to the Islamic faith.

And Dave, whose opinions I respect thinks we should refrain from offending these headbangers by not printing cartoons or satirising Islam like we do to other religions.

I call that appeasement. Tolerance of intolerance is cowardice. Out of solidarity to people like this we should continue to use our post-enlightenment hard fought freedoms. Hard fought, easy to give away at the barrel of a gun which is exactly what is happening.
post edited by SW14 - 2017/04/21 18:41:58
Lrrr
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 19:01:03 (permalink)
SW14
Lrrr
SW14
That's on the wing, what about prison imams?

There was a report only last year that Deobandis (another wingnut ultra Conservative Sunni sect who should be banned) made up the majority of them.

 
Imams, or anyone religious for that matter, don't just wander around the jail talking to people. For them to even come into a contact with an Imam, they'd have to already have converted. 
 
The only people that care enough to convert someone are extremists, and they're all in dispersals. 
 
Do you really think Sanjay from Oxford doing a 6 gives a shit about what religion someone is? Trust me, most of them are more concerned about making money.


Someone who already believes being exposed to extremism imams and being given extremist CD's and literature is a different threat from forced conversion.



I get the point you're making, but from my own experience, it's pretty far fetched. You may get 1 or 2 extremist Imam's sneak through, but with such a spotlight on that angle at the moment, I'd be extremely surprised if even something as disorganised as the prison system doesn't keep a close eye on that. Friday prayers etc all have screws in their anyway, it's not like it's a closed door free for all.
 
All I'm saying is, I'd be a lot more worried about Dave the convert being converted down his local mosque than it happening in most jails. Outside of Birmingham at least 

OEM
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 21:39:26 (permalink)
Cat A or Cat B maybe but C and D are a different thing. It would be a free for all in those places as you have loads of free time to do whatever, esp after lights out. From what I understand lel.


Whiskey_Bill
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/23 13:10:22 (permalink)
Talked with a guy on my new job site. He wants Sharia law instituted for Muslims in Canada. He said, "If you're not Muslim, it wouldnt apply to you." Sure. Muslims don't recognize national borders at all. Everything is in relation to how their faith and sect interpret it. Not on my watch.
We also had muslims leaving their ass-wash water cups in the toilet stalls and it was brought up as a safety hazard.
Shiverman
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/23 13:13:24 (permalink)
Extra pickles please. 
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