Helpful ReplyHot!ISIS/Mass Killings Talk & Speculation

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gutlessrhyme
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/20 23:21:32 (permalink)
Also the Right crying they can't argue their point for fear of being labelled as a racist. Pathetic. Grow a pair and have your argument. But if you're being racist, expect to be called out on it.
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/20 23:26:28 (permalink)
The only person who has cried racism is you, citing a ridiculous Huffington Post article from the same publisher that this week posted an article (created as satire to snare them) saying that white men should be banned from being able to vote to push progressive values entitled "Could it be Time to Deny White Men the Franchise?"
 
The essence of your article was that "there is no such thing as race" but criticising Islam is racist. 
 
 
post edited by SW14 - 2017/04/20 23:27:47
Goodone
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/20 23:54:53 (permalink)
Some fighting talk from the tolerant liberal... Use some of this backbone you've just discovered and examine and challenge your thinking
dotarr
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 09:34:57 (permalink)
Move over ISIS, there's a new kid in town!

Police in Germany have charged a man suspected of being behind an attack on the Borussia Dortmund team bus.

Rather than having links to radical Islamism, he was a market trader hoping to make money if the price of shares in the team fell, prosecutors say.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39664212
Seems a bit amateur, usually capitalist terrorism is done behind state fronts.
Who are we meant to bomb now? Let the markets decide?
RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 09:45:46 (permalink)
SW14
We could start simply by stopping extremist Islamists preaching at our universities.

The NUS were ranting the other day about Westminster University throwing out copies or the Koran that weren't claimed by their Islamic society.
 

It's not just the CCTV cameras @UniWestminster is guilty of. They also destroyed all the students' Qurans. This is what Prevent has caused.

 


The same Islamic society invited Murtaza Khan to speak.

Khan has a history of encouraging communal division, declaring of non-Muslims “people are still not waking up to understand the fact that these people are enemies towards us”, and asking in 2007 “for how long do we have to see our mothers, sisters and daughters having to uncover themselves before these filthy non-Muslim doctors?”
However, it is his views on homosexuality which are the most worrying, including his claim that it is an “abominable action which goes against humanity” and that it should be punished with death.


The NUS' response? Not a fucking word. 

This is the same Islamic society that produced Jihadi John and someone that tried to blow up a plane at Luton airport.
 
https://blogs.spectator.c...e-islamist-extremists/
 
This is a perfect example of pandering to Islam and extremist bile being preached under the cloak of political correctness. Everyone should condemn what these people are teaching and sadly, they are just teaching Wahabbi literal Islam.




 
Banning extreme preachers may well be justifiable. 
 
But it would do fuck all about attacks last night IMO. 
 
I think there is no coincidence that the French have suffered proportionally more than other European countries from fundamentalist atrocities- their long standing involvement in Algeria has built up a deeper well of bitterness. It's a couple of decades more of blowback, generational cementing of hate


SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 09:56:21 (permalink)
Maybe not last night's particular attack, but there is a strong link between University Islamic Societies and UK based terrorists.
 
From Jihadi John to the underpants bomber, the dirty bomb plot (involving President of the same Westminster Islamic Society, Yassin Nassari) to one of the conspirators in the Daniel Perl beheading - Islamic societies been promoting and allowed to promote extremists with a direct causal link to terrorism.
 
That's just one starting place and one route to terrorism, but it is an easy one. Unfortunately, they tend to escape scrutiny due to "religious freedoms", even if they are promoting theocrats who would love nothing more than to take away everyone else's.
 
Prisons are another place that has been infiltrated by radical Islam. Islamism is being promoted through UK institutions and it should be stopped and stopped immediately.
 
I've said it many times but I thoroughly recommend reading "Radical" by Maajid Nawaz for his own experiences of being radicalised at Brunel University and how Hizb Ul Tahrir had managed to penetrate Islamic societies.
 
post edited by SW14 - 2017/04/21 10:03:11
RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 10:04:06 (permalink)
SW14
Maybe not last night's particular attack, but there is a strong link between University Islamic Societies and UK based terrorists.
 
From Jihadi John to the underpants bomber, the dirty bomb plot (involving President of the same Westminster Islamic Society, Yassin Nassari) to one of the conspirators in the Daniel Perl beheading - Islamic societies been promoting and allowed to promote extremists with a direct causal link to terrorism.
 
That's just one starting place and one route to terrorism, but it is an easy one. Unfortunately, they tend to escape scrutiny due to "religious freedoms", even if they are promoting theocrats who would love nothing more than to take away everyone else's.
 
Prisons are another place that has been infiltrated by radical Islam. Islamism is being promoted through UK institutions and it should be stopped and stopped immediately.
 




 
I don't know the stats, but I'd take a bet that at least as many people are indoctrinated in jail than at a place of higher education.
 
Interesting news regarding the Dortmund attack. 
 
https://twitter.com/Peston?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor
 
People eh


SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 10:07:20 (permalink)
Both have been key contributors to UK terror and they should be very easy to get a grip on with the right will, which should be there.

I would say prisons and universities have been about equal.

That is a very, very strange story.
RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 10:07:49 (permalink)
Both your points are valid. So where does the whole "Islam is evil" thing come in, other than an inflammatory and theologically debatable red herring? Why is it necessary at all? It's emotive stuff really and of no benefit to anyone- not to mention helpful to those that would perpetrate these crimes. 


SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 10:20:00 (permalink)
Jungle Dave
Both your points are valid. So where does the whole "Islam is evil" thing come in, other than an inflammatory and theologically debatable red herring? Why is it necessary at all? It's emotive stuff really and of no benefit to anyone- not to mention helpful to those that would perpetrate these crimes. 


Islam teaches some evil things. That is my conclusion. Not exclusively, but there are elements of Islamic teaching that really are pure evil.

I'm sure you would object to the parts that I object to on basic decency and human rights ground.

I consider Islam (the belief system) an enemy of freedom and an enemy of human rights.

The problematic hate preachers and Wahabbists are simply promoting a literal and strict adherence to Islamic doctrine, tied into an agenda

We are quick to label ISIS a "perversion of a great faith" but actually they are doing a pretty authentic job of replicating the life of Mohammed.

The world's top Sunni institution (Al-Azhar) ruled that ISIS were not apostates and were legitimate followers of Islam. We are deluding ourselves to refer to them as "so-called Islamic State." It might make us feel better, but it isn't true.

Islam claims to be a total and perfect solution (spirituality, law, diet) to all of humanity's ills which unsurprisingly manifests itself in a brutal, political and totalitarian way.

It needs to be scrutinized and it needs to be critiqued. It is as much an ideological war as a military one.
post edited by SW14 - 2017/04/21 10:23:58
dotarr
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 10:22:19 (permalink)
I don't think recruitment of Islamic extremists in the UK is any different to the tactics used by rightwing extremists like the NF really. Both take downtrodden (usually, but not always young) angry men who aren't necessarily that bright and tell them their problems are the fault of $ENEMY to use them as soldiers in their fucked up armies.
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 10:28:12 (permalink)
Not true. The NF couldn't go and recruit and radicalize people with impunity on university campuses. Islamists can, through Islamic societies which are left well alone by the powers that be.

The NF would struggle to set up a stand and try and recruit people on the street as Islamist "dawah" stands do in many cities.

People will happily shout down fascism wherever it exists but Islamofascism gets left alone.

I've explained above the links between UK universities and Islamic terror which undermines the "not very bright" theory.
post edited by SW14 - 2017/04/21 10:35:43
darkmatter
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 10:53:19 (permalink)
SW14 and Goodone any revised thoughts on the Dortmund attack?

SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:01:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby DrumBongo 2017/04/21 11:08:12
darkmatter
SW14 and Goodone any revised thoughts on the Dortmund attack?



Given the fact that Europe has been under attack almost weekly by Islamic terrorists and there was a letter citing Islamist justification at the scene, I thought this case was overwhelmingly likely to be filed away in the bursting "Islamic terror" file and the far right would be an extremely unlikely culprit.
 
A German-Russian market trader hoping to short stocks by bombing a random football team coach with a nailbomb is absolutely extraordinary, if that's what it transpires to be.
 
Very hard to disagree with any of Marine Le Pen's proposals to deal with Islamic terror in France:
 
“Islamism is a monstrous totalitarian ideology that has declared war on our nation, on reason, on civilisation...proposals to stop Islamism spreading in France, including banning Salafist organisations, expelling hate preachers and stopping the foreign financing of mosques."
 
 
post edited by SW14 - 2017/04/21 11:11:19
darkmatter
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:09:03 (permalink)
I assumed it was probably an islamist attack too. I didn't argue the case though, as I feel it's risky jumping to conclusions without evidence. Otherwise people think you're being too quick to demonise / lay blame at a certain door which can weaken your argument.

RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:09:20 (permalink)
SW14


Islam teaches some evil things. That is my conclusion. Not exclusively, but there are elements of Islamic teaching that really are pure evil.

 
There are "evil teachings" in all the Abrahamic faiths. Not surprising, given their antiquity and the extraordinarily violent times that they were written. I believe that during times of conflict all of these faiths have produced extremists that have killed in the name of these teachings. Islam has been a factor in conflict since the Mahdi battled and decapitated my ancestor General Gordon of Khartoum- the dawn of colonial meddling. Given the extraordinary amount of violence focused on the Islamic world since Balfour, how could we not expect the more toxic elements of Islam to be brought to the fore? 

I'm sure you would object to the parts that I object to on basic decency and human rights ground.

I object to them, sure. I object to people practising religious violence. Who wouldn't- no one I'm interested in listening to and I'm sure not many normal people would be interested in them either. 

I consider Islam (the belief system) an enemy of freedom and an enemy of human rights.

 
This is where our views divide. It's a vast religion, with thousands of nuanced interpretations of it. Faith isn't dependent on scripture. 

The problematic hate preachers and Wahabbists are simply promoting a literal and strict adherence to Islamic doctrine, tied into an agenda

 
Indeed. It's a literal leap backwards to the seventh century. The actual Dark Ages. 

We are quick to label ISIS a "perversion of a great faith" but actually they are doing a pretty authentic job of replicating the life of Mohammed.
I don't feel this is massively relevant all the while the majority of Muslims reject religious violence. Islam has matured, it has evolved over the years in the same way Judaism and Christianity has. It is in the last 150 years that the residual barbarity of its inception has returned, albeit within certain strands of Islam. 

The world's top Sunni institution (Al-Azhar) ruled that ISIS were not apostates and were legitimate followers of Islam. We are deluding ourselves to refer to them as "so-called Islamic State." It might make us feel better, but it isn't true.
And here is one of those strands. However, they did not condone the actions of ISIS members, and called them "sinners". Again, they make themselves look ridiculous arguing over theology when the obvious action is to define them as apostates, but then again we have a church ripping itself apart her in the UK over the open goal of women priests and gay marriage/priests etc. That's religion for you. 
 
And now let's examine the rest of the non Sunni world, Muslims that reject the backwardness of Wahabism.
 
The Alawites. The Druze. The Kharijites, including the rather intriguing Sufis. I've read the poetry of Rumi. It has more in common with Meister Eckhart or Buddhism. There are millions of Muslims that have nothing to do with, and indeed fear radical Wahabism.  

Islam claims to be a total and perfect solution (spirituality, law, diet) to all of humanity's ills which unsurprisingly manifests itself in a brutal, political and totalitarian way.
All religions claim to be the answer. 

It needs to be scrutinized and it needs to be critiqued. It is as much an ideological war as a military one.



It's more of an ideological war than a military one. That's one of the first places we go wrong. But our alternative ideology needs to be demonstrated, rather than preached about as the majority of Muslims living in the crucible of the Middle East have a pretty dim view of our post colonial adventures by now. 
 
 


Cherno Samba
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:09:41 (permalink)
Marked that as helpful by accident. Soz
RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:18:05 (permalink)
SW14
 
 
Very hard to disagree with any of Marine Le Pen's proposals to deal with Islamic terror in France:
 
“Islamism is a monstrous totalitarian ideology that has declared war on our nation, on reason, on civilisation...proposals to stop Islamism spreading in France, including banning Salafist organisations, expelling hate preachers and stopping the foreign financing of mosques."
 
 




She's playing a dangerous game as you might guess. The difference between "Islam" and "Islamism" to the average idiot is even less than the difference between "paediatrician" and "paedophile"- remember that particular bit of pleb-baiting? 
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm


RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:18:01 (permalink)
Double fuck piece 


SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:21:28 (permalink)
There are some interesting minority sects within Islam (Sufis and Ahmadis especially) but they are generally persecuted and deemed as heretics by the 90% Sunni majority. The state constitution of Pakistan declares Ahmadis to be non-Muslims and strips them of religious rights. An Ahmadi was butchered to death on the streets of Glasgow.
 
In the absence of a centralised Vatican type institution there will of course be many different schools and interpretations of Islam. Could you show me a single country in the Islamic world that is a shining example of freedom, human rights and religious pluralism? 
darkmatter
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:24:59 (permalink)

Could you show me a single country in the non-Muslim world that is a shining example of freedom, human rights and religious pluralism? 


I think you undermine your own argument quite effectively if you can't answer this.
post edited by darkmatter - 2017/04/21 12:10:08

SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:25:03 (permalink)
Jungle Dave
SW14
 
 
Very hard to disagree with any of Marine Le Pen's proposals to deal with Islamic terror in France:
 
“Islamism is a monstrous totalitarian ideology that has declared war on our nation, on reason, on civilisation...proposals to stop Islamism spreading in France, including banning Salafist organisations, expelling hate preachers and stopping the foreign financing of mosques."
 
 




She's playing a dangerous game as you might guess. The difference between "Islam" and "Islamism" to the average idiot is even less than the difference between "paediatrician" and "paedophile"- remember that particular bit of pleb-baiting? 
 
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm




It's a commonly made distinction which has been made before by David Cameron amongst others. It was recommended by the Qualliam foundation as the correct terminology to use.
 
Her actual suggestions are very sensible though. I don't see why centrists can't stand up to the ideology in a similar way. Islamism is literally an anathema to what centrists believe in.
 
Until they do, candidates like Le Pen will pick up votes because people are fed up with being bombed and hearing politicians trot out the same banal platitudes with no action plan to deal with the problem.
RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:32:14 (permalink)
SW14
There are some interesting minority sects within Islam (Sufis and Ahmadis especially) but they are generally persecuted and deemed as heretics by the 90% Sunni majority.
The Sunni's might make up between 80 and 90% of Muslims, but it's worth remembering the numbers we are talking about- there are nearly a third of a billion Shia living around the world today for example.
The state constitution of Pakistan declares Ahmadis to be non-Muslims and strips them of religious rights. An Ahmadi was butchered to death on the streets of Glasgow.
 
In the absence of a centralised Vatican type institution there will of course be many different schools and interpretations of Islam. Could you show me a single country in the Islamic world that is a shining example of freedom, human rights and religious pluralism? 




 
You'd struggle to find many countries fitting that description Islamic or not, particularly one that has been subject to the ongoing oil exploitation, realpolitik of the Cold War and heavyhanded military actions of the West since Gulf War I. 


darkmatter
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:35:07 (permalink)
SW14

Her actual suggestions are very sensible though. I don't see why centrists can't stand up to the ideology in a similar way. Islamism is literally an anathema to what centrists believe in.


They have done. Fillon and Hollande etc have backed certain policies of hers. You know why they don't get behind some others already - it's because they're not as simple as they sound. Freedom of movement stuff can contravene EU law. Banning one religious organisation must be done with consistency i.e. you must be willing to ban others based on the same principle, since there are already incitement of violence laws that you could invoke rather than singling out a specific religion. Banning foreign funding of mosques requires defining what actually constitutes "foreign funding" and then putting systems in place to oversee it (not simple), and risks harming the relationship with countries that France sells millions upon millions of euros worth of weapons to.

The more centrist leaders know these things, so they tiptoe round the issues because they don't want to have to be reneging on all these promises if they get elected. She doesn't operate like that, too gung ho.

SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:36:44 (permalink)
The West hasn't helped. Backing General Zia in Pakistan was an absolute, unmitigated disaster as was backing the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan which produced the Taliban. 
RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:37:01 (permalink)
SW14
 
 
It's a commonly made distinction which has been made before by David Cameron amongst others. It was recommended by the Qualliam foundation as the correct terminology to use.
Qualliam foundation notwithstanding, I think it's a bit rubbish. What's wrong with "Wahabists"?
 
Her actual suggestions are very sensible though. I don't see why centrists can't stand up to the ideology in a similar way. Islamism is literally an anathema to what centrists believe in.
 
Until they do, candidates like Le Pen will pick up votes because people are fed up with being bombed and hearing politicians trot out the same banal platitudes with no action plan to deal with the problem.




 
They'll be disappointed I'm afraid. We need to address the root cause- a context of gross inequality, exploitation and bitterness many generations deep. Might as well ask for the Moon on a stick. 
post edited by Jungle Dave - 2017/04/21 11:38:15


RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:37:03 (permalink)
.


SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:48:55 (permalink)
You would describe the Iranian regime as "Islamist" but you couldn't refer to it as Wahabbist. 
 
 
RAYZA
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:49:26 (permalink)
Police in Germany have charged a man suspected of being behind an attack on the Borussia Dortmund team bus.
Rather than having links to radical Islamism, he was a market trader hoping to make money if the price of shares in the team fell, prosecutors say.
wiseacre
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/21 11:55:44 (permalink)
SW14
In the absence of a centralised Vatican type institution there will of course be many different schools and interpretations of Islam. 



there used to be one until we dismantled the ottoman empire and deposed the sultan, who acted as its de facto pope. and most of those schools and interpretations pre-date that dismantling.
 

no
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