Helpful ReplyHot!ISIS/Mass Killings Talk & Speculation

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H. H. Holmes
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 15:35:04 (permalink)
Yet, somehow, it'd still happen to you wouldn't it m8 lol
Shiverman
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 15:39:33 (permalink)
wiseacre


Does Breivik count?



He used bombs, so don't see how not. He's one of the ones I listed
post edited by Shiverman - 2017/04/16 15:43:17
WiffleBat
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 16:16:39 (permalink)
Soho nailbomber was explicitly trying to start a race war. And you don't have to set off a bomb to be a terrorist. Just last year a member of parliament was murdered by a man screaming "Death to traitors, freedom for Britain". Replace "freedom" with "Sharia" in that sentence and I rather think we'd be being reminded of that on a more regular basis.
wiseacre
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 16:16:49 (permalink)
Sorry, just making light of his divvy "points", using one of the most deadly terrorist attacks in Europe. One that he chooses to ignore.

no
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 16:28:44 (permalink)
wiseacre
Sorry, just making light of his divvy "points", using one of the most deadly terrorist attacks in Europe. One that he chooses to ignore.


I'm not ignoring it, nor saying there isn't right wing terrorism. I'm saying that the sheer frequency of Islamist terror attacks makes it a far more likely candidate, compared to an admittedly depraved but largely isolated terror attack 6 years ago.
Rudiger01
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 16:48:17 (permalink)
Who are we at war with now? Eurasia or Eastasia?
wiseacre
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 17:00:58 (permalink)
Is that why you asked this asinine question?

SW14
Shiverman
And their passports?
 
The mental twists and turns you make are hilarious. Far Right said it was them, 'ah but anyone can say that', ISIS said it was them 'AHA!'


When was the last time you heard of a far right bomb on the European mainland?

no
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 17:11:34 (permalink)
You referenced an isolated incident from 2011. How many Islamist terror attacks have there been on the European mainland since?

Which is the more likely candidate?
Shiverman
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 17:29:36 (permalink)
Haha, I knew that would be your next bout of mental gymnastics. Always the same shite. Oh no not THAT one! That one doesn't count.

Also, I didn't, I referenced a number of incidents, one from 2017. Also, calling one of the worst atrocities in decades an isolated incident, having JUST ASKED FOR AN EXAMPLE OF ONE, is ridiculous. What were your actual requirements to answer your silly question? 
 

Which is the more likely candidate?

 
Are you asking for a probability? Cos it doesn't work like that.
post edited by Shiverman - 2017/04/16 17:31:25
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 17:32:41 (permalink)
It does count. It was horrific. But you can't seriously be drawing any parallels whatsoever to the threat from right wing terrorists to Islamic terrorists.

You are going back to 2011 and drawing for failed plots. If you factored in failed Islamist plots it would crash the board.

The threat is not remotely comparable.
Shiverman
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 17:42:35 (permalink)
No, again I refer you to what I actually wrote, where I mentioned the bomb at the refugee center in Sweden this year. I realise that you don't think refugees are actually people, but there was a homemade bomb set off by neo nazi's.
https://www.thelocal.se/20170203/swedish-neo-nazis-held-over-gothenburg-refugee-centre-blast
 
 
Stop moving the goal posts. So you're now asking for equivalent frequency of attacks in mainland europe? Why aren't we then asking for equivalent attacks on home nations? How many islamic rayguns have set off phosphorous bombs and indeterminate drone killings in Europe? You want to start going down some stupid like for like argument.
wiseacre
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 21:36:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Shiverman 2017/04/17 02:15:22
For us a-religious Westerners online it seems so obvious that a person might pick and choose their religion as suits them. Now, I'm not saying that belonging to a particular religion is like needing glasses, but I think it's much more complicated than people allow.

Imagine you'd been brought up all your life under a relatively moderate Muslim family and community, in a western society. You weren't fed the extremist stuff. You were instructed to have a healthy respect for others, to devote yourself to God and helping others, etc... All your social activity centered around the mosque. Your family practiced humlility and modesty (which included head scarves, but none of you see it as a symbol of oppression, it's just the thing to do - you wear a headscarf in order to *belong*). You pursue your career of whatever, and you do your best to be a good Muslim, you don't drink alcohol or eat pork, you are generous and you live according to Western Society's rules without kicking up a fuss.

Then, repeatedly on the news, and on the Internet, you hear about these terror attacks. And you hate these terrorists just as much as your white neighbor. But still, people treat you with fear and suspicion. And you're desperate to show people in your community that you're on THEIR side.

But they don't really accept you. Perhaps part of it is because you're a different skin color. But mostly, you find out, it's because you believe in THAT religion. The religion of the terrorists. How can you believe in the same thing as those murderers?

You try and point out the differences between normal Islam and extremism but no one truly understands these nuances and differences. "I'M NOT A BAD PERSON, I'M NOT A TERRORIST" you want to scream.

"Prove it. Give up your religion of violence" society replies.

Certain anti Islam groups point to ancient sections of the Quran which you've never even read or heard of, in order to prove that your religion breeds violence. You've never seen those passages in the same way most Christians don't read Deuteronomy. You don't believe in that extreme stuff anyway. But no one listens, and your community still regards your religion with hated and suspicion. There are calls to ban people like you from your country.

Then you go online and people simply say "they should give up their hateful religion. Being Muslim isn't like needing glasses, because you can always give up your religion." You accept this is technically true, it is possible to surrender a religion. But how could you simply give up the foundation of all your morals and beliefs? How could you give up a God that you now know and love - one that has given you inner peace, an identity, and inspired you to be a good person? How could you turn your back on your friends, your favourite Imam, your family, your community?

How could you reject everything you've ever known, simply because of these lunatics with bombs?

So you do your best to show support against these extremists, you march in protest of their actions or whatever. But it doesn't matter. No one pays attention, and society will forever condemn you as a potential suspect, a potential woman abuser, a fanatic, and a follower of a violent religion.

And you can't persuade anyone otherwise.

I'm not saying Islam can't and shouldn't be criticized. And of course, there needs to be a serious conversation about radicalism. But the majority of Muslims living here in the UK are just trying to get on with their lives, and I object to people just telling Muslims to 'give up their religion'

no
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/16 22:11:37 (permalink)
Let's be honest, like all religion Islam is an absolute crock of shit and the penny must drop for some of it's 1.6 billion adherents.

I'd be more worried about the ones who would love to drop the religion because it may have dawned on them that it's very unlikely that the final word of God would be dictated to an illiterate Arab warlord or maybe they've realized that Prophet Mohammed just didn't live a very pleasant existence at all. That he probably didn't fly to the moon on a winged horse or split the moon in half and it's all absolute bullshit.

They can't because of the threat of ostracisation, violence and murder for apostates all over the world.
Shiverman
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 02:19:45 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby darkmatter 2017/04/17 11:08:22
Wiseacre you're wasting your breath. In SW14 et al's eyes Islam is like a faucet of all the evil, that can be simply turned off if only everyone would agree. There's no grey area, no background or history to it, no provocation, no admission that most of these fucking loons aren't even actually muslims. The problem is not foreign policy, education, racism, war...it's just Islam, get rid of that (somehow) and the violence would stop. Bizarre logic.
JUDGEDREDD
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 07:44:05 (permalink)
What are the worst scriptures in the bible? Ones not just open to interpretation
gutlessrhyme
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 07:48:59 (permalink)
SW14
Let's be honest, like all religion Islam is an absolute crock of shit and the penny must drop for some of it's 1.6 billion adherents.


This is why I can't take you seriously; You have some genuine arguments in there but then you come out with stuff like this which just proves to me you simply don't understand how religion works.

Wiseacre and Shiverman talking sense and doing it in a much better way than I can.

dibidibbidibi
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 08:22:40 (permalink)
 
www.biblehub.com/commentaries/genesis/16-12.htm
 
his hand will be against every man—descriptive of the rude, turbulent, and plundering character of the Arabs.

 
That is the normal, widespread, accepted, commonplace, orthodox Judeo-Christian opinion on Arabs. That he's a donkey. It's not racism, it's God's word, the "natural order." The Old and New Testament agree.
 
I mean what language is the original Koran in, and from what peoples did Mo emanate? I think this whole attacking Islam thing is a struggle to get back to the biblical order of things (i.e. before Arabs had any ideas of their own). A clash of Abrahamic religion. Dress it up as a secular issue all you want, all that does is obscure and stifle people’s ability to transcend the debate. But then maybe that’s what you want?
 
Why not let's look a bit deeper. Arab in Hebrew means ambush or ‘to set ambush,’ as names have meanings in Hebrew and only become random nonsensical utterances post-transliteration.
 

אָרַב 
 
ʼârab, aw-rab'; a primitive root; to lurk:—(lie in) ambush(-ment), lay (lie in) wait.
to lie in wait, ambush, lurk
 
  1. (Qal)
    1. to lie in wait
    2. ambush (participle as subst)
  2. (Piel) ambushers, liers-in-wait (pl. participle)
  3. (Hiphil) to lay an ambush
     
 
 

See for yourself

That’s only the primitive root. That is to say, ‘Arab’ is the basis for a whole slew of other words:
 

Treachery / deceit
A lying in wait / covert / den / lair
Lurk
A kind of Locust / Locust swarm 
Insignificance
Window
Chimney
Four
Forty
 

etc. etc.
 
That is only the tip of the semantical iceberg considering every noun in the bible tradition likewise has meaning. Think of all the genealogies. (I’d say such studies are a worthy pursuit if only religion wasn’t a toxic moribund mess full of dead-ends, hypocrisy and opportunism).  
 
So we have seen that ‘Arab’ has a Hebraic meaning / mythos. Also too does ‘Quran’ have a Hebrew meaning, ‘Muslim’ etc. etc. So this ‘clash of civilisations’ is a war of semantics. It’s not going to be remedied.
 
A biblically-inclined person would be thinking that the above paragraph justifies the ‘anti-globalist’ tower of Babel scripture about God confusing tongues. I prefer the more succinct Tao Te Ching aphorism ‘confusion causes loyal ministers to appear,’ bypassing all the derivative Semitic BS.
 
Wow. The sound of my voice is so sweet to my own ears. 
 
 
tl;dr = If you try to convince the Christian, Western world that Arabs aren't criminals-in-waiting, you're swimming upstream, arguing against a 2000-year-old fossilised mythos.
darkmatter
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 11:18:52 (permalink)
While I sort of get where you're going there, none of these words are associated with Arabs in English:
 
Treachery / deceit
A lying in wait / covert / den / lair
Lurk
A kind of Locust / Locust swarm 
Insignificance
Window
Chimney
Four
Forty

 
Very few of us speak Hebrew. A 2000 year old fossilised mythos can change quickly given the right conditions, since most people don't know about or care for that history.

SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 11:27:06 (permalink)
gutlessrhyme
SW14
Let's be honest, like all religion Islam is an absolute crock of shit and the penny must drop for some of it's 1.6 billion adherents.


This is why I can't take you seriously; You have some genuine arguments in there but then you come out with stuff like this which just proves to me you simply don't understand how religion works.

Wiseacre and Shiverman talking sense and doing it in a much better way than I can.


Why? What is wrong with that? Don't you think there are Muslims who question their faith in Islamic countries where it is illegal to apostatize or even be critical of the religion at pain of death?

I understand perfectly how religion works, particularly the Islamic religion where blasphemy and apostasy carry the death penalty to stifle criticism and stop people leaving the faith.
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 11:32:56 (permalink)
JUDGEDREDD
What are the worst scriptures in the bible? Ones not just open to interpretation


I'm sure there are some appalling scriptures in the Bible but there aren't Christian terrorists currently blowing themselves up and mowing people down citing their verses.

I would say comparing the lives of Mohanmed and Jesus would be a reasonable exercise. To my knowledge, Jesus didn't behead people with his own hand, take sex slaves as war bounty, steal children as war bounty, steal from caravans, take child brides, order executions for criticism of him. The Prophet Mohammed did all of these things. The supposed perfect example to all men for all time.

That's not to say that Christianity hasn't had a violent past, it has. But there is something very troubling about someone of that character being lionized by the Islamic faith.
Shiverman
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 11:38:39 (permalink)
 You really are ridiculous.
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 11:48:00 (permalink)
Shiverman
 You really are ridiculous.


Which parts do you disagree with? You don't think there is anything troubling about the example of the murderous and rapacious life of Mohammed being held up as the perfect human?

Can't you see how this inspires genocide and rape of Yazhidis who didn't have any kind of provocative foreign policy at all but were attacked simply for being polytheists?

Can't you see how this example drives lynch mobs to kick students to death for alleged blasphemy as happened yesterday to defend the "honour" of the prophet?

You have misconstrued my argument. I am not saying that Islamic teaching is the only problem, I am saying that it is hugely problematic.
post edited by SW14 - 2017/04/17 11:50:59
darkmatter
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 11:58:01 (permalink)
LOL why would the Christian terrorists need to blow themselves up or hire an attack vehicle.
 
They have Tomahawks, Destroyers and MOABs.
 
You talk about Mohammed far more than any Muslim I've met so I'm not sure how relevant it is to compare and contrast him and Jesus 

Shiverman
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 12:08:11 (permalink)
SW14
Shiverman
 You really are ridiculous.


You have misconstrued my argument. I am not saying that Islamic teaching is the only problem, I am saying that it is hugely problematic.



Oh I know, thats pretty much your only point by the looks of it, and the one your repeat over and over no matter what anyone else says.
Cherno Samba
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 12:16:27 (permalink)
I get the impression sw14 educates himself about Islamic teachings but goes through the same process that curtain twitching middle Englander goes through when they read the daily mail and works himself up into a fury
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 13:19:36 (permalink)
.
post edited by SW14 - 2017/04/17 13:20:52
SW14
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 13:19:36 (permalink)
Most normal people would be disgusted by rape, beheading, beating women, the death penalty for choosing to leave a faith most are born into etc.
Shiverman
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 13:33:29 (permalink)
w1003
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 13:50:38 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby RAYZA 2017/04/17 17:34:14
One way to spend the weekend i suppose

sigs have returned
 
BRB
Johnny Quest
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Re: ISIS Talk & Speculation 2017/04/17 14:35:45 (permalink)
Whowhere
Gutless - if you had to fight a flock of swans in an office type environment armed only with a cricket bat, what would you do once they'd broken both your arms?

Gutless =
 

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