Helpful ReplyHot!To Brexit or not to Brexit?

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Postman Pat
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/13 22:13:15 (permalink)
I read a good article about it somewhere, basically barring some last minute miracle we’re about to have an almighty constitutional crisis. Probably by Friday.

There’s no majority in parliament for any of the options, be that May’s deal, no deal, stay or second referendum.

Brexiteers are just gonna hold tight for thier no deal no matter what, but they don’t have a majority so if you take them out of the equation the rest of parliament basically has a choice between no deal or second referendum.

Surely a second referendum is the only sensible way out of the crisis, make it nice and clear no deal hard brexit vs carry on as we were. Zero ambiguity, and make the result binding for say 10 years.

Otherwise we’re gonna end up with the government collapsing and then a general election fought out between 2 parties neither of whom has a clear agreed direction for Brexit amongst their ranks anyway. And then we’ll be right back where we started.

Watch us get a second referendum and then vote leave again.
Mighty Wighty
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/13 22:15:14 (permalink)
Jonesy.
It will be hilarious if we end up doing a u-turn. All that time, effort and money wasted for absolutely fuck all. Fantastic.


The only way that might be considered fantastic is if the EU promise us reform in support.
Postman Pat
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/13 22:16:35 (permalink)
The thing that fucks me off most about all this is the word Brexit, it’s so fucking cringe and shit and we’re stuck with it for ever. What cunt thought that up.
LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/13 22:44:28 (permalink)
In the hypothetical scenario of a second referendum, a remain vote would be a hilarious result. Angry leave voters couldn't logically claim that the "will of the people" is being ignored since that would self-evidently no longer be the "will of the people". It would also simultaneously indicate that referendums are a ridiculous opinion poll at an arbitrary point in time and the "will of the people" is a nonsense concept, so we should ignore the second one and follow through with Brexit as planned or alternatively realise at this point that the first one was a diaster and pretend none of this ever happened.... or something.
 
I suppose it's quite arrogant to assume it would now result in a remain vote though. I doubt many people have actually changed their mind. The only thing that could potentially swing it is some young people who weren't previously eligible voting, along with increased turnout among young voters. Corbzy managed to mobilise young people in the 2017 GE but he has a massive boner for Brexit so he wouldn't campaign with any pashun during a  referendum campaign (by shouting at the sky or whatever).
 
I don't know why I wrote all that. There won't be another referendum.


STOCKPILE SPAM
SW14
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/13 23:20:06 (permalink)
Farage shouting out Jez on his twitter saying how Sir Keir Starmer needs to “listen to Corbyn”.

Shows the bizarre state of British politics and the absurdity of the Labour Party’s Hokey Cokey ever-changing positions on Brexit. McDonnell, Corbyn and McLusky want out and pretty much the entire membership and rest of the party want to remain.
Duderonomy
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 07:45:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby S8 2018/11/14 09:57:34
LHC
and pretend none of this ever happened....


That would be the most British thing to do, but whatever the result, I don’t think the British political class realise just how stupid they look internationally now; this will be a Suez moment for a country that won’t be taken seriously for a generation or two. Every time a British leader makes any kind of important statement, the response will inevitably be “are you sure?”, every time there are trade talks or meetings, the language used to describe Britain’s role will be about indecision, ineptitude, and unpreparedness, and knowing the Brit political class, they’ll probably overcompensate for the titters and whispers by jumping headfirst into stupid decisions in an effort to look decisive.
Test Recordings
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 07:53:50 (permalink)
Duderonomy
LHC
and pretend none of this ever happened....


That would be the most British thing to do, but whatever the result, I don’t think the British political class realise just how stupid they look internationally now; this will be a Suez moment for a country that won’t be taken seriously for a generation or two. Every time a British leader makes any kind of important statement, the response will inevitably be “are you sure?”, every time there are trade talks or meetings, the language used to describe Britain’s role will be about indecision, ineptitude, and unpreparedness, and knowing the Brit political class, they’ll probably overcompensate for the titters and whispers by jumping headfirst into stupid decisions in an effort to look decisive.



Yeah, you could even see the Chinese and Russian leadership laughing after the vote... they knew what it meant for our future
Duderonomy
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 07:58:08 (permalink)
Just look at today’s papers: front page news about the wording of a *possible* decision that doesn’t even have the backing of the government as if this is a momentous achievement - it’s taken 2 fucking years, and might get scrapped in the next few hours anyway.
darkmatter
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 16:59:53 (permalink)
In the hypothetical scenario of a second referendum, a remain vote would be a hilarious result. Angry leave voters couldn't logically claim that the "will of the people" is being ignored since that would self-evidently no longer be the "will of the people".


They will simply argue that as soon as the people voted to leave, the establishment started peddling lies about the dangers, and the EU made no effort to meet us in the middle, thereby completely ignoring the democratic will of a large number of people it's meant to represent. I.e. further proof of how terrible it is, backed up by overturned decisions in many other EU countries. And they'll argue they forced this on us by giving us no freedom for movement (ahem) in that decision.

They'll have plenty to moan about, I reckon there's very little chance they'll say "fair play - popular opinion has shifted".

darkmatter
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 17:02:55 (permalink)
SW14
Farage shouting out Jez on his twitter saying how Sir Keir Starmer needs to “listen to Corbyn”.

Shows the bizarre state of British politics and the absurdity of the Labour Party’s Hokey Cokey ever-changing positions on Brexit. McDonnell, Corbyn and McLusky want out and pretty much the entire membership and rest of the party want to remain.


For me the Starmer / Corbyn split on Brexit is a key reason for Labour's current mess. He seemed like the perfect person for this, backed with a really strong public record, but they are so clearly at odds on this that it's hard to see how they can form a unit. So we're stuck with confidantes like McDonnell and Abbott FFS.

shroomy
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 17:04:53 (permalink)
darkmatter
In the hypothetical scenario of a second referendum, a remain vote would be a hilarious result. Angry leave voters couldn't logically claim that the "will of the people" is being ignored since that would self-evidently no longer be the "will of the people".


They will simply argue that as soon as the people voted to leave, the establishment started peddling lies about the dangers, and the EU made no effort to meet us in the middle, thereby completely ignoring the democratic will of a large number of people it's meant to represent. I.e. further proof of how terrible it is, backed up by overturned decisions in many other EU countries. And they'll argue they forced this on us by giving us no freedom for movement (ahem) in that decision.

They'll have plenty to moan about, I reckon there's very little chance they'll say "fair play - popular opinion has shifted".

 
I can't see why the EU would bother to meet us in the middle while there are talks of a second referendum. I'm not sure what would stop them from completely fucking us should we decide to remain either as we would have just shown that we're not capable of leaving.

The mere discussion of another referendum doesn't do us any favours regardless of the end result as far as I can tell.
post edited by shroomy - 2018/11/14 17:06:08
SW14
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 17:17:22 (permalink)
darkmatter
SW14
Farage shouting out Jez on his twitter saying how Sir Keir Starmer needs to “listen to Corbyn”.

Shows the bizarre state of British politics and the absurdity of the Labour Party’s Hokey Cokey ever-changing positions on Brexit. McDonnell, Corbyn and McLusky want out and pretty much the entire membership and rest of the party want to remain.


For me the Starmer / Corbyn split on Brexit is a key reason for Labour's current mess. He seemed like the perfect person for this, backed with a really strong public record, but they are so clearly at odds on this that it's hard to see how they can form a unit. So we're stuck with confidantes like McDonnell and Abbott FFS.


Labour have almost no credibility attacking the government on Brexit, let alone presenting themselves as white knights to be swept in after a GE and fix it.

Their “tests” clearly violate the four freedoms, their leader wants out and their Brexit Secretary wants a second referendum, neither of which can agree a common message.
LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 18:05:06 (permalink)
darkmatter
In the hypothetical scenario of a second referendum, a remain vote would be a hilarious result. Angry leave voters couldn't logically claim that the "will of the people" is being ignored since that would self-evidently no longer be the "will of the people".


They will simply argue that as soon as the people voted to leave, the establishment started peddling lies about the dangers, and the EU made no effort to meet us in the middle, thereby completely ignoring the democratic will of a large number of people it's meant to represent. I.e. further proof of how terrible it is, backed up by overturned decisions in many other EU countries. And they'll argue they forced this on us by giving us no freedom for movement (ahem) in that decision.


But one of the key arguments against a second referendum is that did understand what they were voting for on that particular day (even though they obviously didn't - Brexit was essentially only defined yesterday) so all the lies and false promises on either side were irrelevant to the result; it really did reflect the will of the people. The exact same argument would logically apply to any other referendum so they wouldn't be able to say remain lies/EU bullying affected the new will of the people.

I'm not saying they wouldn't do it but it seems to me be the logical conclusion of any number of referendums is either side saying 'we won, you lost get over it', 'oh yeah well what about today?'. Complete clusterfuck. There is no will of the people so just pretend this never happened.
post edited by LHC - 2018/11/14 18:06:36
darkmatter
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 18:08:59 (permalink)
LHC
the logical conclusion of any number of referendums is either side saying 'we won, you lost get over it', 'oh yeah well what about today?'. Complete clusterfuck.


Yep. That Jordan Peterson guy was arguing this on QT.

@shroomy - agreed
post edited by darkmatter - 2018/11/14 18:10:02

LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 18:45:30 (permalink)
shroomy
darkmatter
In the hypothetical scenario of a second referendum, a remain vote would be a hilarious result. Angry leave voters couldn't logically claim that the "will of the people" is being ignored since that would self-evidently no longer be the "will of the people".


They will simply argue that as soon as the people voted to leave, the establishment started peddling lies about the dangers, and the EU made no effort to meet us in the middle, thereby completely ignoring the democratic will of a large number of people it's meant to represent. I.e. further proof of how terrible it is, backed up by overturned decisions in many other EU countries. And they'll argue they forced this on us by giving us no freedom for movement (ahem) in that decision.

They'll have plenty to moan about, I reckon there's very little chance they'll say "fair play - popular opinion has shifted".

 
I can't see why the EU would bother to meet us in the middle while there are talks of a second referendum. I'm not sure what would stop them from completely fucking us should we decide to remain either as we would have just shown that we're not capable of leaving.

The mere discussion of another referendum doesn't do us any favours regardless of the end result as far as I can tell.

But the government has repeatedly ruled out a second referendum. The only people discussing it aren't in power. Are you saying they shouldn't discuss what they think because it might not help the government? It seems like that would fundamentally damage the opportunity of the opposition to hold the government to account.

P. S. That's, like, censorship man. #HTRY
Postman Pat
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 18:55:18 (permalink)
Justice minister said earlier that either no deal or a second referendum would lead to “something akin to a civil war”, which is nice.

Maybe the only thing that could bring the country back together is backing May’s plan. All this talk of vassalage is a bit of a smoke screen if you think about it. It’s only really being trumpeted by die hard remainers and Brexiteer cunts, none of the pragmatists are against it.

Tell me if I’m wrong, but is this plan not designed to be a stop gap between now and 2020 when we would leave more fully albeit with an EU trade deal? Given that if we crash out with no deal it’d take us years to strike a new trade deal with anyone anyway, and from a far weaker position at that, is it not the wisest course of action just to go along with it for now?

Remainers are shitting it that once we’re out there’s no going back (as if there’s any going back, Pandora’s box is open).

Brexiteers are shitting it that they won’t get to turn the country into the regulation free tax haven they want for their rich cunt mates.

Maybe they should all listen to the people who are trying thier best to please everybody.

Or not, what the fuck do I know. I just wish it would all fuck off tbh.
Postman Pat
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 19:21:12 (permalink)
I reckon tomorrow’s Daily Mail headline will give us a good idea of what we’re gonna get, seeing as they control the minds of so many gammon leave voters.

If they back May firmly she might get her way. Chances are that they will, they’re certainly not gonna call for a second referendum and since Dacre’s gone they’ve been a little hostile towards brexiteers.
KnuckleHead
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 19:22:17 (permalink)
Anyone else catch the Fah-Rajj on lbc just now, that was special.

Now some northerner just called in to Ian Dales show and said he can see bombs going off as a result of this deal.

And now people are heckling her speech
Postman Pat
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 19:42:28 (permalink)
Farage on twitter saying it's the worst deal in history, even though no one outside of cabinet ministers have actually seen it yet.
 
Bet the brexiteers get a Trump tweet in their favour by the end of the day. 
 
 
 
KnuckleHead
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 19:48:47 (permalink)
Postman Pat
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 20:20:02 (permalink)
yuck
LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 20:27:10 (permalink)
I heard the Rees Mogg (AKA STEPHEN YAXLEY-LENNON) on the radio saying he was going to vote against a meaningful vote. I'm not sure how this would work since the High Court already said it was necessary. I guess he was planning to table and/or vote for an amendment which if passed would then mean a meaningful vote wouldn't be necessary.

Even if he got the amendment, how would it help his cause? It would then provide less of an opportunity for the insane hard Brexiteers to stop the deal agreed by the adorable Mayesie & Co going through.
shroomy
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 22:01:24 (permalink)
LHC
shroomy
darkmatter
In the hypothetical scenario of a second referendum, a remain vote would be a hilarious result. Angry leave voters couldn't logically claim that the "will of the people" is being ignored since that would self-evidently no longer be the "will of the people".


They will simply argue that as soon as the people voted to leave, the establishment started peddling lies about the dangers, and the EU made no effort to meet us in the middle, thereby completely ignoring the democratic will of a large number of people it's meant to represent. I.e. further proof of how terrible it is, backed up by overturned decisions in many other EU countries. And they'll argue they forced this on us by giving us no freedom for movement (ahem) in that decision.

They'll have plenty to moan about, I reckon there's very little chance they'll say "fair play - popular opinion has shifted".

 
I can't see why the EU would bother to meet us in the middle while there are talks of a second referendum. I'm not sure what would stop them from completely fucking us should we decide to remain either as we would have just shown that we're not capable of leaving.

The mere discussion of another referendum doesn't do us any favours regardless of the end result as far as I can tell.

But the government has repeatedly ruled out a second referendum. The only people discussing it aren't in power. Are you saying they shouldn't discuss what they think because it might not help the government? It seems like that would fundamentally damage the opportunity of the opposition to hold the government to account.

P. S. That's, like, censorship man. #HTRY


I'm saying we shouldn't encourage a second referendum because the only people who realistically stand to benefit from it are the EU itself.

They may have claimed to rule it out (probably to avoid harming negotiations in the exact way I mentioned) but we all know about how politicians' stance changes with the wind. If there was a serious demand for one then they'll do it but thankfully there isn't at the moment.

Not sure what you're saying with that last bit, I'd have thought a second referendum would take accountability away from the government
wiseacre
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 22:30:24 (permalink)
Are you seriously saying the UK wouldn't benefit from a Second referendum if it prevented the economic and political suicide that is brexit?

no
shroomy
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 23:44:21 (permalink)
It compounds the political and economic suicide that is Brexit by reducing the incentive the EU has to offer a reasonable deal or failing that it paves the way for the economic and political suicide that is deciding to leave and then failing to do so.
 
Don't get me wrong, I have no faith in it, but I'd rather see it followed through than not after all this shit otherwise we will have shot ourselves in the foot just to end up in a very similar but undoubtedly weaker position than where we started. Having said that I am aware that that is where Brexit is likely to take us anyway.
post edited by shroomy - 2018/11/14 23:46:02
DNBADMAN
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/14 23:50:58 (permalink)
Basically

Some cunt that was voted in (by most of the people that are now feeling awkward, think about it)... decided it would be a good idea to leave something to the public vote when he knew that tensions were high (UKIP gaining power etc). He left that to the public vote.... with no plan or criteria for that vote. I cannot help but think that a majority of these people are the same ones up in arms now that the vote didn't go in their favour.
If said cunt and his office wasn't voted in we probably wouldn't be in this shit storm.
Then he leaves. Who turns up? A cunt from old time (Blair) to try and make himself sound brilliant to all the desperate people.
wiseacre
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/15 06:42:28 (permalink)
shroomy
It compounds the political and economic suicide that is Brexit by reducing the incentive the EU has to offer a reasonable deal or failing that it paves the way for the economic and political suicide that is deciding to leave and then failing to do so.
 
Don't get me wrong, I have no faith in it, but I'd rather see it followed through than not after all this shit otherwise we will have shot ourselves in the foot just to end up in a very similar but undoubtedly weaker position than where we started. Having said that I am aware that that is where Brexit is likely to take us anyway.


The eu were always in the stronger position

no
shroomy
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/15 07:01:13 (permalink)
Yes
 
I suspect you've misunderstood what I was saying there or, more likely, I've done a shit job of articulating it because I'm not saying that they weren't. I was talking about our position now relative to say, 3 years ago.
post edited by shroomy - 2018/11/15 07:06:50
LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/15 08:52:19 (permalink)
But it's not the job of the opposition or other people not in power to shut up and let the government do whatever they want. If the government thought the possibility of a second referendum would weaken their negotiating position then they shouldn't have called a General Election or ran such a pathetic campaign. That is what greatly weakened the government and harmed their negotiating position.
Stoopid_Fux
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2018/11/15 08:57:32 (permalink)
Dominic Raab has resigned.
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