Helpful ReplyHot!To Brexit or not to Brexit?

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Bruce Bogtrotter
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/16 13:51:01 (permalink)
edmc
Brexit will fuck the markets, we will all be worse off. That is a guarantee.



This


#61
dotarr
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 09:51:09 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Duderonomy 2016/02/18 14:49:25
Bit ot but a reasonably interesting thing on general views across EU and the US.
http://www.pewglobal.org/...n-european-values-gap/
#62
gutlessrhyme
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 11:34:50 (permalink)
JUDGEDREDD
Seeing the word Brexit is getting on my nerves 


I heard the term "Frexit" on the radio this morning.
#63
LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 12:17:40 (permalink)
darkmatter
LHC - the argument would be made that we have referenda when the overriding 'constitutional' dynamic in our democracy could change. AV, Scotland, Europe. Know what you mean though.

I do understand that but these are the issues on which we most need our representatives - not Lorraine from down the chippy.
#64
Lrrr
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 12:22:54 (permalink)
I just came in to say I can't believe we're going to let *insert common name here* who works in *insert minimum wage job here* have a say.

#65
dotarr
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 12:43:19 (permalink)
Well my mate Barry who works for Highland hydraulic services knows all about this sort of thing.
#66
edmc
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 12:45:01 (permalink)
LHC
darkmatter
LHC - the argument would be made that we have referenda when the overriding 'constitutional' dynamic in our democracy could change. AV, Scotland, Europe. Know what you mean though.

I do understand that but these are the issues on which we most need our representatives - not Lorraine from down the chippy.


A significant number of our 'representatives', especially in the government are power crazed, ideologically driven sociopaths.

The out camp actively want all ties cut with Europe 'grrrrrr Brussels' while the pro-camp including the PM seem to be on suicide squad mission for reasons unknown.

You think these cunts are really that qualified to know what's right for the country? Do you seriously think the Tories are doing any good for this country in any aspect of either domestic or foreign affairs? Should they be let loose on the EU question unhindered by a referendum?
post edited by edmc - 2016/02/18 12:46:17

#67
JUDGEDREDD
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 14:28:40 (permalink)
gutlessrhyme
JUDGEDREDD
Seeing the word Brexit is getting on my nerves 


I heard the term "Frexit" on the radio this morning.



Cods-wallop 
#68
darkmatter
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 14:43:56 (permalink)
LHC
darkmatter
LHC - the argument would be made that we have referenda when the overriding 'constitutional' dynamic in our democracy could change. AV, Scotland, Europe. Know what you mean though.

I do understand that but these are the issues on which we most need our representatives - not Lorraine from down the chippy.


But that's not representative democracy. They are meant to represent the views of the electorate and enact their wishes, not go away and do whatever they think is best. The latter approach encourages exploitation of the system for personal gain, and that is a problem endemic in politics and is exactly what we don't want for an issue as big as Europe.

However, just like with Scotland, the referendum itself is sort of tokenism because the options on the ballot are too binary. Most people wanted devo-lite for Scotland. Most people want us to stay in the EU, but with more democracy / accountability / transparency / freedom over border controls. But those weren't offered as options, so I guess we'll just maintain the status quo.

#69
gutlessrhyme
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 15:18:16 (permalink)
JUDGEDREDD
gutlessrhyme
JUDGEDREDD
Seeing the word Brexit is getting on my nerves 


I heard the term "Frexit" on the radio this morning.



Cods-wallop 


No, I really did.
#70
LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 15:32:49 (permalink)
edmc
LHC
darkmatter
LHC - the argument would be made that we have referenda when the overriding 'constitutional' dynamic in our democracy could change. AV, Scotland, Europe. Know what you mean though.

I do understand that but these are the issues on which we most need our representatives - not Lorraine from down the chippy.


A significant number of our 'representatives', especially in the government are power crazed, ideologically driven sociopaths. 

The out camp actively want all ties cut with Europe 'grrrrrr Brussels' while the pro-camp including the PM seem to be on suicide squad mission for reasons unknown.

You think these cunts are really that qualified to know what's right for the country? Do you seriously think the Tories are doing any good for this country in any aspect of either domestic or foreign affairs? Should they be let loose on the EU question unhindered by a referendum?

No I don't trust them at all. I was speaking more from the hypothetical standpoint of a well-functioning democracy. I suppose in such a society Lorraine could also be trusted to have an opinion on politics. She also isn't called Lorraine and people don't go down the chippy.
#71
LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 18:05:32 (permalink)
darkmatter
LHC
darkmatter
LHC - the argument would be made that we have referenda when the overriding 'constitutional' dynamic in our democracy could change. AV, Scotland, Europe. Know what you mean though.

I do understand that but these are the issues on which we most need our representatives - not Lorraine from down the chippy.


But that's not representative democracy. They are meant to represent the views of the electorate and enact their wishes, not go away and do whatever they think is best. The latter approach encourages exploitation of the system for personal gain, and that is a problem endemic in politics and is exactly what we don't want for an issue as big as Europe.


The point of a representative democracy is to provide representation for various groups and, in a regional system, the people of a particular area. A referendum simply imposes the will of the 50.000001% or whichever arbitrary figure they decide will achieve the result they desire on a given issue. I don't see that as any more representative.
#72
darkmatter
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 22:17:59 (permalink)
LHC

The point of a representative democracy is to provide representation for various groups and, in a regional system, the people of a particular area. A referendum simply imposes the will of the 50.000001% or whichever arbitrary figure they decide will achieve the result they desire on a given issue. I don't see that as any more representative.




Yep, the old problem of minority representation within a 'majority rules' system. And I agree it's not more representative, it's participatory. However my point is that when you're changing the structure of a democracy, the people currently running that democracy are not necessarily the best people to do it, because clear self interest emerges. Just as when Labour or the Conservatives redefine constituency boundaries you tend to see bias emerge.
 
I'm not arguing that the referendum is a good and sensible idea that solves these democratic conundrums, I'm just saying that 'leaving the politicians to do their jobs' is far from ideal too. These are people very skilled in campaigning to get elected, but that doesn't infer they have the capability or desire to make the right decisions on our behalf in world politics.
 
There's a good book on this called 'the wisdom of crowds', it's definitely more theory than science but some interesting ideas.

#73
dimdum
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 22:37:44 (permalink)
Yeah Wisdom of Crowds is a good book. I like books like these. Starting The Establishment soon but I wanted to find more books like WoC. Like Gladwell's books, Tipping Point, blink etc but need more recommendations
#74
DNBADMAN
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/18 22:47:37 (permalink)
Brexit
#75
Krishu
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 09:31:15 (permalink)
I think it's appropriate Brxit goes to referendum because it is a question of sovereignty and governorship. 

The results will determine if Britons are liable to the whims of Brussels and the laws they pass. 

In essence, it is deciding what form of 'representation' do Britons desire, so I think they should have a direct vote on the issue. 
 
David Cameron doesn't give a fuck, he is only fighting to avoid going down in history as the idiot who destroyed the EU and committed Europe to another millennia of chaos.

(I'm a NZer)
#76
wiseacre
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 11:01:07 (permalink)
unless the EU collapses completely (it won't) we'll still be subject to "the whims of Brussels and the laws they pass" except we won't have a seat at the table to influence things. this is what happens to Norway, Switzerland, etc, now.
 
and that will diminish the UK's role in the world when it comes to talking, negotiating and influencing the likes of the USA, China, etc. in calling for more sovereignty and "govenorship" (governance?) the effect of leaving will be to actively undermine it to a far greater extent.
 
the pathetic short sightedness of many with the islander mentality really boils my piss. 

no
#77
dotarr
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 11:05:58 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby JaZ517 2016/02/23 18:55:33
Yeah but we've got that special relationship with the US haven't we? You know... the one where we do everything they say and in return they let us say we're friends. Surely that'll be beneficial in securing our own trade deal!
#78
JUDGEDREDD
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 11:09:43 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby JaZ517 2016/02/23 18:55:47
I saw on the BBC they were asking 80 year old women and hairdressers their views and opinions. The general public don't have a clue about anything. It's all smoke and mirrors anyway, just bend over, spread it wide and think of England.. Which you're ironically being fucked by anyway.
#79
dotarr
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 11:12:57 (permalink)
The amount of pandering to old people really boils my piss. These people aren't going to have to live through the mess they leave behind; for some of them buying green bananas is a gamble.
#80
JUDGEDREDD
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 11:22:34 (permalink)
They're all Fucking loaded aswell, they get free everything and still moan
#81
Whagwan
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 11:42:48 (permalink)
simon.r
for some of them buying green bananas is a gamble.





#82
edmc
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 11:50:52 (permalink)
simon.r
The amount of pandering to old people really boils my piss. These people aren't going to have to live through the mess they leave behind; for some of them buying green bananas is a gamble.


As Hague said himself in 1977 to the Conservative party conference 'it's alright for some of you, half of you won't be here in 30 or 40 years time'

oooh the irony.

#83
Krishu
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 12:30:01 (permalink)
wiseacre
unless the EU collapses completely (it won't) we'll still be subject to "the whims of Brussels and the laws they pass" except we won't have a seat at the table to influence things. this is what happens to Norway, Switzerland, etc, now.
 
and that will diminish the UK's role in the world when it comes to talking, negotiating and influencing the likes of the USA, China, etc. in calling for more sovereignty and "govenorship" (governance?) the effect of leaving will be to actively undermine it to a far greater extent.
 
the pathetic short sightedness of many with the islander mentality really boils my piss. 


 
I didn't realise Brussels would still have such a big influence over Britain in the exit scenario.

Sounds completely nuts to opt out of such an important institution then.

I think with things like international data laws (Regulating, Google, Amazon Cloud, etc.), international tax law, and just in war and conflict, supra-national organisations like the EU are going to become more important than any national government. 

I don't understand why rather than talk about leaving, Britain doesn't take the leadership with France and Germany, and carry this shit forward. A united Europe is badass, Poles happily and voluntarily coming into Britain to do the dirty work is great. Tie up the Euro gas market and tell Russia to keep it's gas. All this pan-Europe stuff is so powerful and unprecedented since Rome...
#84
darkmatter
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/19 18:14:48 (permalink)
So the MPs are allowed to take a pencil and paper with them when viewing the TTIP documents, but no electronic recording devices.

http://www.theguardian.co...il-and-paper-with-them

Who's in charge here?

#85
Krishu
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/20 07:46:24 (permalink)
Business
#86
JUDGEDREDD
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/20 08:30:17 (permalink)
darkmatter
So the MPs are allowed to take a pencil and paper with them when viewing the TTIP documents, but no electronic recording devices.

http://www.theguardian.co...il-and-paper-with-them

Who's in charge here?


How is it legal to decide on a trade deal that defines our trading when we the people who are the reason for trade are not allowed to know anything about it. I'm not sure I'm even shocked or surprised anymore.

I have no confidence in our political system. People we pay silly money to represent us quite clearly don't represent us. Can we impose new contracts on them seeing as we're the people who hire them?
#87
Stoopid_Fux
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Whagwan
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/23 16:52:23 (permalink)
Got me convinced...
#89
Autograff
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/23 16:58:18 (permalink)
I can't actually watch anymore than 20 seconds of that before worrying I'll implode as I'm cringing so hard. 
#90
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