Helpful ReplyHot!To Brexit or not to Brexit?

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Easton
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 09:20:14 (permalink)
The rise of UKIP forced the Tories to promise an EU referendum to win votes back. Now its finally going to happen it looks like we are leaving the EU because of morons like Nigel Farage, Arron Banks and ultimately David Cameron.

Staying in the Euro if not only for workers and human rights should be a good reason to stay in the frame. The polls can be wrong but the leave eu is gathering momentum and its quite worrying because its not a fair debate and the stay campaign is so weak. 

#Stay
#31
edmc
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 09:35:24 (permalink)
Brexit will fuck the markets, we will all be worse off. That is a guarantee. That's a purely economic observation and how it will affect quality of life.

Though there are many Joe Bloggs stupid enough to want it, only the very rich can afford it. It's only non-Dom overlords like Lord Rothermere owner of the Daily Mail or the Barclay bros of The Telegraph who will definitely remain unscathed or likely benefit through their chains of offshore tax avoidance schemes - what a surprise that it's these cunts peddling the anti-EU narrative.

Add that to the Tories failure to grow the economy will mean shit creek for all of us.

Leaving the EU is cutting nose off to spite face, it's irrelevant what xyz dead prime minister should have done in the 70s/80s.

Do not be fooled by Tories scaremongering about a federal Europe when they can't quote or prove any individual or organisation arguing or striving for it.
post edited by edmc - 2016/02/11 09:38:46

#32
frizzyd
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 10:31:59 (permalink)
simon.r
Britain would unlikely secure a better trade deal outside of ttip, for citizens anyway, and even that's shit. Plus we'd still have to adhere to Europe's rules to trade with them, we'd just have no say at all.



There are many issues to the whole debate, but what the potential trade deal would look like is a complete unknown. I suspect due to the size of the UK economy, the trade deal the UK can broker with the EU would be on significantly more favourable terms than the likes of Norway or Switzerland but no-one really knows.
 
Yes you'd have to adhere to the EU rules for a free trade agreement and countries like Canada, Mexico, Israel and China have managed to do this, but the EU could of course make an example out of the UK as a deterrent against other EU countries thinking of leaving and only offer a trade deal with some quite draconian terms.
 
Obviously Cameron has gone off to attempt to renegotiate 'our relationship with Europe' which to me seems like a complete waste of time as there is no real appetite for change within the rest of the EU, but maybe some euro-sceptic MEP's should also be pooling opinion with the other MEP's on what a post-Brexit trade deal might look like with the EU to allow British citizens to make an informed choice and perhaps raise the level of debate past immigration and benefits. At the moment this is just going in the same direction as the Scottish Independence debate where the ramifications of leaving the union were completely unknown, or just made up by the opposing sides.
 
I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.
#33
Daniel Snakeman
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 10:40:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Willfunk 2016/02/12 18:23:27
frizzyd
 
 
I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.




 
Strongly agree.
#34
dotarr
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 10:44:02 (permalink)
frizzyd
 
I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.


If I didn't have to live in it, I'd be more than happy to watch these pricks suffer in their wasteland behind their walled garden.
#35
frizzyd
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 10:53:23 (permalink)
simon.r
frizzyd
I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.


If I didn't have to live in it, I'd be more than happy to watch these pricks suffer in their wasteland behind their walled garden.


You'll probably be alright though Simon, once all the little Englanders get their way and the UK leaves whilst the majority of Scots vote to stay in, then another Scottish referendum will probably be held and bye bye Scotland from the union and you'll be back in the EU.
 
Cameron will have not only the UK leaving the EU, but also the break up of the Union both as part of his prime ministerial legacy, go David you snug faced cunt!!!
#36
Autograff
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 13:33:26 (permalink)
I hate the term Brexit.
 
HTH
#37
Eazyflow
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 17:56:05 (permalink)
frizzyd
 
I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.



Everything this.
 
I've always been against the idea of a referendum since I feel that myself along with the vast majority of other people are not qualified to take part.
 
We have Parliament, solicitors, diplomats and economists to make the decision in the best interests of the nation - Sandra from the cake shop hasn't a clue.
 
EU membership is too intricate, with too many overlapping issues, to be decided on a gut feeling, or a dislike of Romanians.
 
As for how I'm going to vote, no fucking idea to be honest.
post edited by Eazyflow - 2016/02/11 18:39:34

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#38
Aunty West
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 18:04:21 (permalink)
Snakey
frizzyd
 
 
I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.






 
Strongly agree.


I do too but their readership is so low I don't think you can blame them for it.

I also agree with autograff and also dog borstal age is but a number, your cateracts however are not 😊
#39
Sylar
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 20:54:58 (permalink)
Brexit. Eurosceptics. Diarrhoea.

Words that are mt's tbm
#40
edmc
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 22:47:47 (permalink)
Eazyflow
frizzyd
 
I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.



Everything this.
 
I've always been against the idea of a referendum since I feel that myself along with the vast majority of other people are not qualified to take part.
 
We have Parliament, solicitors, diplomats and economists to make the decision in the best interests of the nation - Sandra from the cake shop hasn't a clue.
 
EU membership is too intricate, with too many overlapping issues, to be decided on a gut feeling, or a dislike of Romanians.
 
As for how I'm going to vote, no fucking idea to be honest.


Dangerous territory though because what's the cutoff point?

A small advisory committee with a dictator?

The beauty of a democracy is defending idiots rights to vote.

#41
Subsurface
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 23:15:11 (permalink)
edmc
Eazyflow
frizzyd
 
I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.



Everything this.
 
I've always been against the idea of a referendum since I feel that myself along with the vast majority of other people are not qualified to take part.
 
We have Parliament, solicitors, diplomats and economists to make the decision in the best interests of the nation - Sandra from the cake shop hasn't a clue.
 
EU membership is too intricate, with too many overlapping issues, to be decided on a gut feeling, or a dislike of Romanians.
 
As for how I'm going to vote, no fucking idea to be honest.


Dangerous territory though because what's the cutoff point?

A small advisory committee with a dictator?

The beauty of a democracy is defending idiots rights to vote.



Agreed. It's political bias in the media that should be clamped down on. Parties shouldn't be able to buy their way into favour in the papers. Or Google searches for that matter, the despicable cunts.
 
Even given the fact that the majority of the population have no clue what effect leaving the EU might actually have, we should still have a referendum. It's the strongest form of democracy we have.
#42
edmc
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/11 23:54:08 (permalink)
Subsurface
edmc
Eazyflow
frizzyd

I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.



Everything this.

I've always been against the idea of a referendum since I feel that myself along with the vast majority of other people are not qualified to take part.

We have Parliament, solicitors, diplomats and economists to make the decision in the best interests of the nation - Sandra from the cake shop hasn't a clue.

EU membership is too intricate, with too many overlapping issues, to be decided on a gut feeling, or a dislike of Romanians.

As for how I'm going to vote, no fucking idea to be honest.


Dangerous territory though because what's the cutoff point?

A small advisory committee with a dictator?

The beauty of a democracy is defending idiots rights to vote.



Agreed. It's political bias in the media that should be clamped down on. Parties shouldn't be able to buy their way into favour in the papers. Or Google searches for that matter, the despicable cunts.
 
Even given the fact that the majority of the population have no clue what effect leaving the EU might actually have, we should still have a referendum. It's the strongest form of democracy we have.


The pro side will never give up though, even if it's a resounding no to Brexit the fight will go on.

#43
Eazyflow
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 08:14:41 (permalink)
edmc

The beauty of a democracy is defending idiots rights to vote.



I am all for an idiots right to vote. The village idiot has as much weight in this democracy as I have. But neither myself, nor the village idiot, know enough about the EU to vote on it.
 
Only a tiny fraction in the UK know enough to make an informed decision on the EU. A tiny,
minute fraction. Mostly academics, politicians, diplomats, solicitors and economists.
 
Most people will be swayed by scare stories in the press, we don't have time to devote years of our lives to studying the labyrinth of EU laws, treaties and policies.
 
I do take your point though, and Subsurface's too. I just feel uneasy about leaving a decision that has ramifications as huge as this in the hands of Gary from human resources.
post edited by Eazyflow - 2016/02/12 08:15:48

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#44
LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 09:02:45 (permalink)
Why specifically a referendum on this issue though and not every other issue? We have elected representatives to make decisions. Why is this any different?
#45
edmc
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 10:18:36 (permalink)
Eazyflow
edmc

The beauty of a democracy is defending idiots rights to vote.



I am all for an idiots right to vote. The village idiot has as much weight in this democracy as I have. But neither myself, nor the village idiot, know enough about the EU to vote on it.

Only a tiny fraction in the UK know enough to make an informed decision on the EU. A tiny,
minute fraction. Mostly academics, politicians, diplomats, solicitors and economists.

Most people will be swayed by scare stories in the press, we don't have time to devote years of our lives to studying the labyrinth of EU laws, treaties and policies.

I do take your point though, and Subsurface's too. I just feel uneasy about leaving a decision that has ramifications as huge as this in the hands of Gary from human resources.


You could say that about any vote and election, last General Election being a prime example.

Besides many of our elected representatives are well, you know, cunts. I wouldn't trust them any more than the man in the street probably less.
post edited by edmc - 2016/02/12 10:21:06

#46
Eazyflow
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 10:28:15 (permalink)
LHC
Why specifically a referendum on this issue though and not every other issue? We have elected representatives to make decisions. Why is this any different?




Because this is a quagmire of political, economic and legal technicalities, and the reason we elect those representatives in the first place is that we trust they are properly qualified to make these kind of decisions in our best interests (naïve I know, but hey...).
 
This is a decision that needs to be completely removed from hyperbole and prejudice which should be taken on sound pragmatic reason by people with the skills to weigh up the cold hard numbers, rather than the irrational gut-feelings of people who "just want our country back".
 
Whatever the decision come the referendum I don't believe that it will have been a properly informed one.
 
 

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#47
JUDGEDREDD
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 10:47:31 (permalink)
Seeing the word Brexit is getting on my nerves 
#48
LHC
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 11:01:42 (permalink)
Eazyflow
LHC
Why specifically a referendum on this issue though and not every other issue? We have elected representatives to make decisions. Why is this any different?




Because this is a quagmire of political, economic and legal technicalities, and the reason we elect those representatives in the first place is that we trust they are properly qualified to make these kind of decisions in our best interests (naïve I know, but hey...).
 
This is a decision that needs to be completely removed from hyperbole and prejudice which should be taken on sound pragmatic reason by people with the skills to weigh up the cold hard numbers, rather than the irrational gut-feelings of people who "just want our country back".
 
Whatever the decision come the referendum I don't believe that it will have been a properly informed one.
 
 


I'm pretty sure we are in agreement. My point was that we don't have referendums for everything else, so what makes this any different (other than the obvious appeals to xenophobia-related  emotion)? I frequently see the argument "that's how democracy works - idiots get to vote" but actually - on most matters - they don't. Why now?
post edited by LHC - 2016/02/12 11:09:01
#49
dotarr
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 11:15:33 (permalink)
It is incredibly depressing that people are willing to reshape the country entirely because they think the EU's mandate is to ban bent cucumbers.
#50
frizzyd
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 11:40:38 (permalink)
Subsurface
Agreed. It's political bias in the media that should be clamped down on. Parties shouldn't be able to buy their way into favour in the papers. Or Google searches for that matter, the despicable cunts.
 
Even given the fact that the majority of the population have no clue what effect leaving the EU might actually have, we should still have a referendum. It's the strongest form of democracy we have.



The right wing press seem at the moment to be going in hard on Cameron and seem very much anti-EU.
 
I wonder how long it will be before his lizard like tentacles get them to wind their necks in though
#51
Eazyflow
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 16:52:47 (permalink)
LHC
Eazyflow
LHC
Why specifically a referendum on this issue though and not every other issue? We have elected representatives to make decisions. Why is this any different?




Because this is a quagmire of political, economic and legal technicalities, and the reason we elect those representatives in the first place is that we trust they are properly qualified to make these kind of decisions in our best interests (naïve I know, but hey...).
 
This is a decision that needs to be completely removed from hyperbole and prejudice which should be taken on sound pragmatic reason by people with the skills to weigh up the cold hard numbers, rather than the irrational gut-feelings of people who "just want our country back".
 
Whatever the decision come the referendum I don't believe that it will have been a properly informed one.
 
 


I'm pretty sure we are in agreement. My point was that we don't have referendums for everything else, so what makes this any different (other than the obvious appeals to xenophobia-related  emotion)? I frequently see the argument "that's how democracy works - idiots get to vote" but actually - on most matters - they don't. Why now?




Ah, I gets you...
 
Fuck knows tbh - I always assumed a referendum was offered pre-election to win some votes and shut the kippers up.
 
Still surprised they're actaully going through with it if I'm honest. It's not as if the tories don't already have form when it comes to reneging on pre election pledges...

OLD SKOOL FOR SALE:


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#52
Daniel Snakeman
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 17:24:48 (permalink)
My problem with BREXIT is that whenever someone says "Well won't this on particular thing be a bit shit after BREXIT?" the answer is always "Oh no! that bit will be exactly the same!" Seeing as nobody knows wtf will happen if we actually initiate BREXIT, it's clear to anybody they are just making it up lol.
Exactly like the SNP were doing during their referendum.
 
There are no facts as far as i can see, only hot air and idiots.
 
I'm swayed towards a staying in point of view only because everyone who seems to be advocating BREXIT is a complete an utter tosser.
 
Whoever said figures on the left were contemplating support for BREXIT (yes, that's right they called it LEXIT ffs) is correct, but i haven't really seen that school of thought gain much traction.
#53
Eazyflow
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 18:08:36 (permalink)
Snakey
 
Whoever said figures on the left were contemplating support for BREXIT (yes, that's right they called it LEXIT ffs) is correct, but i haven't really seen that school of thought gain much traction.




I'll admit as a lefty the only reason I would consider voting 'out' is because I see immigration as being central to the neoliberal project. If you want to destroy workers' rights and living conditions, then the best way to do so is by globalising the economy, making workers in expensive countries compete with workers in poorer ones.
 
But then as you say, I look at people at the helm of the out campaign and think am I really thinking of siding with this set of cunts!?
 
#conflicted
 
 
post edited by Eazyflow - 2016/02/12 18:10:47

OLD SKOOL FOR SALE:


"If you don't know the roots from the trunk of the tree, you won't know the branches or what the fruit will b
#54
Dog Borstal
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 18:51:06 (permalink)
#55
edmc
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 19:12:16 (permalink)
Dog Borstal



Aldi knock off wheatabix packets are getting weirder and weirder.

#56
JUDGEDREDD
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/12 19:40:03 (permalink)
What will happen to Aldi?
#57
RUSSELL CLARTY
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/16 13:16:51 (permalink)
It's a bit of a nightmare the way I see it- we are vulnerable on our own, the US and China won't look after us. Idiots like Cameron and Osborne roll over for anyone with a wallet. The EU is an undemocratic farce.
 
The only solution is to dramatically reform the EU to become more democratic- so essentially not only do we have to convince the electorate to stay in the disaster area that is the EU, then we must push for, and get reform that we demand. Simple tings, I'll have it done by teatime. 


#58
darkmatter
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/16 13:41:24 (permalink)
Eazyflow
frizzyd
 
I actually question the logic of letting a country which is swayed by rags like the Sun and Mail to even be offered the opportunity to vote on such a complex issue but that's another thing altogether.



Everything this.
 
I've always been against the idea of a referendum since I feel that myself along with the vast majority of other people are not qualified to take part.
 
We have Parliament, solicitors, diplomats and economists to make the decision in the best interests of the nation - Sandra from the cake shop hasn't a clue.
 
EU membership is too intricate, with too many overlapping issues, to be decided on a gut feeling, or a dislike of Romanians.
 
As for how I'm going to vote, no fucking idea to be honest.


Sandra from the cake shop - worried about the plight of junior doctors because she has an ageing mum. Supports green policies because she likes cats. Wants a higher tax band for the wealthy because she doesn't earn much.

Vs.

Adam the economist - owns shares in circle health and health insurance for him and his kids, so he supports dismantling the NHS. Earns over 80k, so he supports our current regressive tax system. Wants to leave Europe because he feel it's perfectly fair for him to ask his staff to work whatever hours he decides, he started the company after all.

It's an interesting idea but wouldn't work in my view. For example try asking an economist what changes they think we should make. One might be Keynesian, while another is Austrian school - which requires the breakup of the EU/ECB arrangement. Who wins?

See here: https://en.m.wikipedia.or..ki/The_Wisdom_of_Crowds

Under "Four elements required to form a wise crowd"

#59
darkmatter
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Re: To Brexit or not to Brexit? 2016/02/16 13:47:35 (permalink)
LHC - the argument would be made that we have referenda when the overriding 'constitutional' dynamic in our democracy could change. AV, Scotland, Europe. Know what you mean though.

#60
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