AnsweredHot!Politics Thread

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Whagwan
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/20 14:01:37 (permalink)

SW14
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/20 14:16:37 (permalink)
simon.r
Stoopid_Fux
There would be even more uncertainity if voted to leave the UK. Spain will not allow them in the EU.
 
I would be willing to bet quite a lot of money if you gave Scotland an indepence referendum next week they would lose.




Sigh. This is a myth. Spain has always said it would be fine with Scotland joining the EU provided its separation from the UK is unilateral. It only objects to Scotland breaking away on its own because that would give Catalonia ideas.
 
 




Unilateral? Bilateral, surely?
darkmatter
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/20 14:36:37 (permalink)
I think some people in Spain would resist while others would support. It's impossible to predict the national line at this stage really.

If Scotland does go independent, it will be years before accession arrangements can be made. They need a currency for starters.

By the time it comes to making the call, Spanish politics will be different. If it makes sense for the EU to let Scotland join they will, and the EU27(?) will tell Spain to get on with telling Catalonians that they were never akin to Scotland anyway.

Spain have a sluggish economy and have been receiving plenty of EU support recently. I think because of this it's unlikely they'll be in a position to dictate a policy that would work against the interests of stronger members.

Whiskey_Bill
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/20 22:22:26 (permalink)
geordie007
Thats not true Bill - all MEPs are elected by their countries and corporations have been dictating policy even here in Britain as well as the rest of the world since before  Iwas born


Seems we are both right.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/eu...unelected-bureaucrats/
Whagwan
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/21 09:54:26 (permalink)
there is little to justify the idea that the EU is run by unelected bureaucrats, and the procedures in place for appointing the Commission are now far more democratic than they were in the past.


Great selective reading skills there.
gutlessrhyme
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/21 10:10:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Duderonomy 2017/03/22 08:19:25
tl dr; there are 3 working parts:
 
The Commission - They propose and write laws. Unelected
The Parliament - These are elected MEPs. They debate, scrutinise and vote on laws.
The Council - Elected. Made up of ministers from each member state. They also scrutinise laws before they're enacted.
 
So you have one unelected body thinking up and writing laws, and 2 elected bodies scrutinising it. 
It's a bit shady, granted, but I think it's unfair to say "The EU is run by unelected beureaucrats". 
Whagwan
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/21 10:28:13 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby wiseacre 2017/03/21 11:59:48
The unelected commission is still subject to a vote of approval by the European Parliament so about a hundred times more diplomatic than the UK and the HoL.
gutlessrhyme
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/21 10:35:58 (permalink)
Someone tell the Daily Express
Geordie007
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/21 11:22:59 (permalink)
gutlessrhyme
Someone tell the Daily Express




How do you know they dont already know - do you read it?
darkmatter
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/21 11:24:37 (permalink)
The above is all how it SHOULD work though.

When the majority of our MEPs come from a party that supports our independence, and they don't engage in votes, we can be sure something's not quite right and won't work as intended.

When voting for MEPs, did anyone have clue what the differences were between Labour, Cons and Lib Dem? It seemed the only parties with a clear agenda were UKIP and possibly Green. So it's no wonder a single issue party like UKIP comes to the fore. In a system where the politicians (and their policies) seem so far removed from the local concerns of voters, is this always an inevitability of a system this size? Are we seeing the same in the states i.e. Bible belt states are voting for an utterly different reason than "bracket states", and the result is that neither end up feeling represented?

While I like the idea of Europe and unity, it annoys me that people always look at the democracy question through the lens of the rules and regs. A system might seem well designed on the surface, but if the reality is that no one knows what they're voting for and that no politician is accountable to an election pledge, the resulting democratic deficit can still be huge.

All of this was a major argument of the various devolution movements and I think they have a point.

gutlessrhyme
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/21 11:35:46 (permalink)
geordie007
gutlessrhyme
Someone tell the Daily Express




How do you know they dont already know - do you read it?




I give it a glance now and then - Father in law reads it. It's quite comical if you know not to take it seriously.
 
[EDIT] 
 
LOL THIS IS NEWS
 

post edited by gutlessrhyme - 2017/03/21 12:36:36
Goodone
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/21 18:56:09 (permalink)
darkmatter
The above is all how it SHOULD work though.

When the majority of our MEPs come from a party that supports our independence, and they don't engage in votes, we can be sure something's not quite right and won't work as intended.

When voting for MEPs, did anyone have clue what the differences were between Labour, Cons and Lib Dem? It seemed the only parties with a clear agenda were UKIP and possibly Green. So it's no wonder a single issue party like UKIP comes to the fore. In a system where the politicians (and their policies) seem so far removed from the local concerns of voters, is this always an inevitability of a system this size? Are we seeing the same in the states i.e. Bible belt states are voting for an utterly different reason than "bracket states", and the result is that neither end up feeling represented?

While I like the idea of Europe and unity, it annoys me that people always look at the democracy question through the lens of the rules and regs. A system might seem well designed on the surface, but if the reality is that no one knows what they're voting for and that no politician is accountable to an election pledge, the resulting democratic deficit can still be huge.

All of this was a major argument of the various devolution movements and I think they have a point.


Totally agree with all this.

Unfortunately the world is changing and we live in uncertain times... we can't stay wedded to an institution which has shown itself to be so inept at handling this change no matter how appealing the ideas behind it are
darkmatter
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Geordie007
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 15:15:33 (permalink)
darkmatter
Shooting outside parliament https://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/live/2017/mar/22/peers-say-brexit-with-no-trade-deal-would-cause-signicicant-damage-to-service-sector-politics-live
 


It's all kicking off eh? Probably fed up with sturgeon and the second referendum
Roboraver
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 15:18:03 (permalink)
raahhhh Someone has been playing too much GTV 5 on PC in 4K with a Oculas rift.
 
Autograff
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 15:27:19 (permalink)
https://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/60v19p/shots_fired_outside_uk_parliament/
 
Sounds like someone mowed some people down on the bridge, crashed, stabbed a copper and got shot.
 
Stay safe LDN crew. 
wiseacre
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 15:30:10 (permalink)
Goodone
darkmatter
The above is all how it SHOULD work though.

When the majority of our MEPs come from a party that supports our independence, and they don't engage in votes, we can be sure something's not quite right and won't work as intended.

When voting for MEPs, did anyone have clue what the differences were between Labour, Cons and Lib Dem? It seemed the only parties with a clear agenda were UKIP and possibly Green. So it's no wonder a single issue party like UKIP comes to the fore. In a system where the politicians (and their policies) seem so far removed from the local concerns of voters, is this always an inevitability of a system this size? Are we seeing the same in the states i.e. Bible belt states are voting for an utterly different reason than "bracket states", and the result is that neither end up feeling represented?

While I like the idea of Europe and unity, it annoys me that people always look at the democracy question through the lens of the rules and regs. A system might seem well designed on the surface, but if the reality is that no one knows what they're voting for and that no politician is accountable to an election pledge, the resulting democratic deficit can still be huge.

All of this was a major argument of the various devolution movements and I think they have a point.


Totally agree with all this.

Unfortunately the world is changing and we live in uncertain times... we can't stay wedded to an institution which has shown itself to be so inept at handling this change no matter how appealing the ideas behind it are



tbh i find that the EU is better at handling this change than the UK govt. it's about the only institution that has stood up to microsoft, google and facebook, and then spying whereas the UK has rolled over and done whatever they and the US govt has asked of us, to the detriment of our civil liberties, privacy and consumer protections.

no
darkmatter
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 16:11:23 (permalink)
wiseacre
 
tbh i find that the EU is better at handling this change than the UK govt. it's about the only institution that has stood up to microsoft, google and facebook, and then spying whereas the UK has rolled over and done whatever they and the US govt has asked of us, to the detriment of our civil liberties, privacy and consumer protections.




I agree this is generally correct historically. There was a phase where socialist and green parties had plenty of representation - though we seem to be moving the other way currently.
 
I guess my question is - is there a risk that this (EU > UK) will be the perception regardless of whether it's a fair representation, due to the flaws in the way human psychology and the mass media work?
 
What I mean is - if the UK government do something, the papers tend to present a certain interpretation of how this will directly impact us, so we have some form of feedback that allows us to judge them. We have something concrete that we can rally against; we know the high level policy ideas and we know faces of the politicians we will be blaming for the resulting shit show.
 
With the EU it's kind of a different animal. Do we really know what the impact of Draghi committing to QE before it was legal was? Is our electorate even really aware of these actions or the key players? Do we have an opinion on Target2 imbalances, or whether there are big problems that need fixing in ERMII? Why are key members (France, Britain, Germany, Italy, Sweden and Spain) producing so many weapons - and is the EU going to be a vehicle for slowing that - or financially supporting it while democratically 'legitimising' it on a wider scale? Do any of us really have the first clue what is happening behind those closed (or even open) doors, and if no how can we expect accountability?
 
Do you really think they've protected workers' rights in Spain, Italy, Portugal and Greece - or have they done more to protect investors/bankers rights?
 
I'm not saying "the EU parliament is just as bad as the UK gov, but we're ignorant to the negatives". I think the UK is currently worse on balance as you say. However I think maybe it's harder to fix 28 countries by consensus than it is to fix one (/four), and things like the Iceland story give me a bit of hope there.
 
To give a recent example - will the UK electorate know about / care about the calls for Dijsselbloem to quit? Will they see further evidence of the north/south divide, entrenchment of the current arrangement where the netherlands and germany etc team up with investors and banks to shit on southern europe and then blame them (southern europe) for spending all their money on booze and women?
post edited by darkmatter - 2017/03/22 16:21:21

Goodone
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 16:27:03 (permalink)
wiseacre


tbh i find that the EU is better at handling this change than the UK govt. it's about the only institution that has stood up to microsoft, google and facebook, and then spying whereas the UK has rolled over and done whatever they and the US govt has asked of us, to the detriment of our civil liberties, privacy and consumer protections.


I'm not sure the eu can be heralded as the champion of the common man against the nasty corporations... it's because of the neo liberal economic order that we have large corporations with more power than governments and crippled working classes... standing up to Google etc was nothing more than posturing imo
darkmatter
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 16:30:17 (permalink)
Goodone
standing up to Google etc was nothing more than posturing imo



I think his point is that posturing against them, however meek, is better than giving them a no-questions-asked rimming.

Goodone
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 16:34:27 (permalink)
Well I would have to agree with you there! I think the complacency of eu (UK included) that status quo was viable long term has / had to stop.... it's a shame it took brexit (and trump!) To get this on the radar
dotarr
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 16:44:36 (permalink)
Yes, much better to give the reigns to groups who are even more conscious-less than the rest of the EU on most of these issues, much better that way.
Goodone
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 16:48:21 (permalink)
But I think that's the point.... if these guys were so conscious of rights etc why is Europe in such a state? Because they are chasing a pipe dream at the very expense of the people you say they are protecting
darkmatter
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 16:50:06 (permalink)
Conscious-less? 
 
So you'd rather give the reigns to Janusz Korwin-Mikke? You massive sexist!
post edited by darkmatter - 2017/03/22 16:52:06

wiseacre
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 17:01:20 (permalink)
he's a long known crank and only became an MEP after numerous pitiful attempts at becoming polish president and every alliance he has tried to form in the EU parliament has collapsed. using him as an example of the EU is worse than using this guy, who is an MP for the ruling party, as the epitome of the british government:
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Bone
 

no
darkmatter
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 17:07:26 (permalink)
wiseacre
using him as an example of the EU is worse than using this guy
 

 
Calling Simon a massive sexist is probably slightly unfair too

Will Mac
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 17:33:20 (permalink)
Just read the headline CATASTROPHIC TERRORIST ATTACK ON HOUSES OF PARLIAMENT in the news. I fucking hate the press in this country
shroomy
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 17:43:10 (permalink)
Terrorism these days just seems to mean the odd nutter committing GBH if the news is to be believed.
Cherno Samba
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/22 17:52:08 (permalink)
Just seen a police convoy guiding a black car and a black range rover through a crossroad in manor house. Was proper 24 business for minute there
Whiskey_Bill
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Re: General Election 2015 2017/03/24 01:30:39 (permalink)
Saffa democracy
 

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